Leica M10-R: New M-Flagship with 41 MP Sensor

[John Miranda]

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1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Is your opinion based on your experience with high resolution cameras?

I have been shooting handheld with high resolution (46Mp) cameras without a tripod and stabilization since 2017 (Nikon D850).
- Nikon D850 is a 46Mp camera. It has been used successfully without a tripod and optical stabilization by many.

- Hasselblad X1D (50Mp, no IBIS, no VR) is used mostly handheld with great success (see recent Stephen Shore work).

- Most Leica M10M shooting is done handheld.

Even a 100Mp camera (H6D) is being used successfully without a tripod (mostly in a studio).

I agree, also have had a Nikon D850 for ~3 years, and of course for various settings a tripod is necessary to maximize the detail, but it is not an absolute and to say it is always necessary is an over-reach based on my actual experience.   I'm already discovering the same with my M10-R compared to the base M10.  Setting auto shutter speed 1/4x or faster will bring out a notable difference when looking at an image full size on a large display.. (e.g. for 50mm lens, shoot at least 1/200th a second or faster)....

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[SrMi]

1 hour ago, John Miranda said:

I agree, also have had a Nikon D850 for ~3 years, and of course for various settings a tripod is necessary to maximize the detail, but it is not an absolute and to say it is always necessary is an over-reach based on my actual experience.   I'm already discovering the same with my M10-R compared to the base M10.  Setting auto shutter speed 1/4x or faster will bring out a notable difference when looking at an image full size on a large display.. (e.g. for 50mm lens, shoot at least 1/200th a second or faster)....

Furthermore, if your output size is the same (not 1:1 pixel peeping), you can use the same shutter speed regardless of sensor resolution.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

Is your opinion based on your experience with high resolution cameras?

I have been shooting handheld with high resolution (46Mp) cameras without a tripod and stabilization since 2017 (Nikon D850).
- Nikon D850 is a 46Mp camera. It has been used successfully without a tripod and optical stabilization by many.

- Hasselblad X1D (50Mp, no IBIS, no VR) is used mostly handheld with great success (see recent Stephen Shore work).

- Most Leica M10M shooting is done handheld.

Even a 100Mp camera (H6D) is being used successfully without a tripod (mostly in a studio).

Of course you can use any camera handheld but it introduces variables and weakens the case for any need for the latest and greatest resolution

Handheld v tripod = tripod wins every time for reliably getting the most out of a camera/lens..

Regarding "experience on high resolution cameras" what year are you referring to?  i mean high resolution cameras now will not be very soon.

.

 

[michaelcole]

2 hours ago, John Miranda said:

I agree, also have had a Nikon D850 for ~3 years, and of course for various settings a tripod is necessary to maximize the detail, but it is not an absolute and to say it is always necessary is an over-reach based on my actual experience.   I'm already discovering the same with my M10-R compared to the base M10.  Setting auto shutter speed 1/4x or faster will bring out a notable difference when looking at an image full size on a large display.. (e.g. for 50mm lens, shoot at least 1/200th a second or faster)....

A huge factor with a camera like the Nikon d850 is the vibration from the instant return mirror.  When I want the best from my Nikons I use a tripod and lock up the mirror.

With my Leica, there is no vibrations from a moving mirror.

 

Michael

[darylgo]

When I want to eek out every nuance of image sharpness a tripod is imperative. Previous tests showed a setting of 1/250 second to be the equivalent sharpness of a tripod with a 50mm lens and a 24mp sensor. Not so with the M10-r, it’s more like 1/500 or higher, I can’t say for sure as I haven’t run a test. If my shutter speed is longer than 1/250 I take 3 shots in succession and one will be sharper than the other two. The M240 live view has a similarity to a mirror in an slr, it induced vibration on a tripod at those critical and always useful speeds of 1/4-1/15 second. The M10-P tripod  mounted didn’t have this issue, and again I haven’t tested my M10-R but sense it might. Best practice for me is to turn off live view before shooting to get greatest sharpness (less motion blur) both on tripod and off.   I wish I could handhold at 1/15 second that many photographers state but either my hands aren’t as steady as theirs or my standards are higher.  With that said, sharpness is not the holy grail for every subject and shot, a tiny amount of blur may enhance a portrait with a Peter Karbe optic that is otherwise tack sharp. 

[M11 for me]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb steve 1959:

Of course you can use any camera handheld but it introduces variables and weakens the case for any need for the latest and greatest resolution

Handheld v tripod = tripod wins every time for reliably getting the most out of a camera/lens..

Regarding "experience on high resolution cameras" what year are you referring to?  i mean high resolution cameras now will not be very soon.

.

 

Facts against theory. This hast been tested and described. What is you point? I just take that you insist on a position. 

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16 hours ago, M10 for me said:

Facts against theory. This hast been tested and described. What is you point? I just take that you insist on a position. 

I know its just this crazy theory i have that a camera mounted on a tripod is more likely to provide a sharp image than one handheld by a human.

 

[John Miranda]

There is a missed aspect here.  Yes a Tripod will sharpen over hand held, but often I want the freedom of movement that not carrying a tripod implies.  I might arrive at better compositions if I am less anchored to a tripod, and its set height, etc, or catch a fast moving situation, or actually use the camera from a higher number of compositions than when slowing down to work with a tripod - and when there is sufficient available light, I absolutely still achieve higher useful image resolution with 40+ MP models, even if it isn't to its true full potential due to hand held.  Others can theorize, but in using 40+ MP models for years with thousands of captures, I know what I can get.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, John Miranda said:

There is a missed aspect here.  Yes a Tripod will sharpen over hand held, but often I want the freedom of movement that not carrying a tripod implies.  I might arrive at better compositions if I am less anchored to a tripod, and its set height, etc, or catch a fast moving situation, or actually use the camera from a higher number of compositions than when slowing down to work with a tripod - and when there is sufficient available light, I absolutely still achieve higher useful image resolution with 40+ MP models, even if it isn't to its true full potential due to hand held.  Others can theorize, but in using 40+ MP models for years with thousands of captures, I know what I can get.

Totally agree with you and the leica m is very much associated with handheld photography.

My point is that it diminishes the value of the extra resolution if your using the camera handheld.

Also and this is just an opinion but chasing the next camera with the higher mega pixel is a fools game that will not improve anybodies photography in the slightest,in fact its just a game they want us to play.

[Mikep996]

I just read that a 3200 MP camera is now operating.  The sensor is a bit large for a Leica M but hey, computers with a small fraction of the power of an iPhone used to occupy several rooms.  Wonder how long it will be before everyone is saying 40MP is laughably small and essentially useless for photography.

https://phys.org/news/2020-09-sensors-world-largest-digital-camera.html

[wlaidlaw]

Am I correct that focus peaking on non-RF lenses (e.g. Leica R mount lenses with the R to L adapter) is only working when the image is zoomed on the M10-R. I think if this is the case, this is different from my M240, where image peaking works zoomed or non-zoomed. I have looked in the menu and cannot see any menu item to change this behaviour. 

Wilson

[scott kirkpatrick]

3 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

I just read that a 3200 MP camera is now operating.  The sensor is a bit large for a Leica M but hey, computers with a small fraction of the power of an iPhone used to occupy several rooms.  Wonder how long it will be before everyone is saying 40MP is laughably small and essentially useless for photography.

https://phys.org/news/2020-09-sensors-world-largest-digital-camera.html

I'm sure it will be a lovely camera.  Astronomy works on a unique timescale.  The project began exploring its design issues (and seeking funding) in 2003, and hopes to achieve "first light" in its working location in Chile in 2023, where it will be used as a whole sky survey instrument for another 20 or more years.  The astronomy community as a whole has to decide which instruments to pursue when this much money is involved, so GAS is not really an option.  Decadal priority surveys taken every 10 years are a part of the decision process.  A successful project needs to win two of these in a row to reach completion.  The imaging surface is roughly 24 x 24 inches (60 cm square).  Carleton Watkins would have felt comfortable making a serious picture with it, although I don't think he could have provided the liquid nitrogen used to cool the CCDs to their working temperature.  I love the fact that they are testing it by making pinhole pictures.

Edited September 9, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[Martin B]

19 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

I just read that a 3200 MP camera is now operating.  The sensor is a bit large for a Leica M but hey, computers with a small fraction of the power of an iPhone used to occupy several rooms.  Wonder how long it will be before everyone is saying 40MP is laughably small and essentially useless for photography.

https://phys.org/news/2020-09-sensors-world-largest-digital-camera.html

Sony is using since years already a 61.2 MP FF sensor in the A7R IV. The race for higher MP and more DR will surely continue. I expect a 100 MP FF sensor in about 3-4 years. Not sure how much more DR can be improved though - it is already very good. This doesn't make 24 MP FF cameras redundant - even if screens also to continue to improve in resolution, web-size photos taken with 24 MP will look very similar to those taken with a > 60 MP sensor. The difference is more in cropping capability, larger prints, or when high resolution is a benefit for the subject (microscopy, architecture for example). 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Martin B

[wlaidlaw]

My memory was faulty. Focus peaking only turns on when zoom is activated on the M240 just like the M10-R, either manually on non-RF lenses or automatically on RF coupled lenses, when the focus ring is moved. Interestingly on the M10-R, peaking activates a fraction before zoom does.

Anyone got any idea why Leica Fotos is so------- slow to activate on the M10-R. On mine it takes over 30 seconds. On my other wifi coupled Leicas, e.g. SL or CL, it is virtually instant from selecting in the menu to the QR code appearing on the rear LCD screen. 

Wilson

[budjames]

I own the M10P (factory converted M10) and the new M10-R.

After using the M10-R for the past few weeks, the biggest benefit I enjoy of the increase resolution is the ability to crop tighter and still have amazing detail and sharpness. My go to lens is the summicron 35mm followed by my APO Summicron 50mm.

In August last year, I took a family vacation for two weeks to Scotland and Ireland. I brought my M10 and the two lenses mentioned. My 35mm never left the camera. In post-processing, the greater resolution of the M10-R would have been beneficial on a few images.

I plan on taking my M10-R and my Summicron 35 and APO 50 on my next trip. My iPhone 11 is always with me for the family snapshots and GPS recording. This is an awesome travel kit for my needs. It all fits very nicely with ample extra space in my Billingham Hadley Pro 2020 bag.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[scott kirkpatrick]

On 9/10/2020 at 4:04 PM, wlaidlaw said:

Anyone got any idea why Leica Fotos is so------- slow to activate on the M10-R. On mine it takes over 30 seconds. On my other wifi coupled Leicas, e.g. SL or CL, it is virtually instant from selecting in the menu to the QR code appearing on the rear LCD screen. 

Wilson

It's not only Leica Fotos, that takes those 30 seconds.  That's the time that the WiFi takes to initialize on an M.  You can check with a phone in "settings" to see that the camera only appears in the list of wifi signals that it can hear after about 30 seconds,  On my SLs, there is more action to see, because Fotos, once things are properly registered, uses Blue Tooth to wake up the WiFi, and blinks the LED on the rear of the camera in various colors as data moves across.  But that still takes about 30 seconds before the WiFi signal is visible (or audible).  The QR code can appear immediately as it is only for passing registration information.  Then the real work  can start. Except for passing ID, date, time, and GPS location (sometimes), which BlueTooth can do, you have to wait for the WiFi to get fired up and synchronized.

[wlaidlaw]

Fotos is an app that still needs considerable work. I had to use it last week to take a photo of my back for my surgeon. I tried using both the CL and SL. I could get neither to work consistently with my iPhone SE, as once I went round in front of the camera, my iPhone lost connection with the camera's wifi output every time. Ditto with an iPad with the CL. The SL obviously must have a marginally higher power wifi signal as if I stayed within less than three feet from the front of the camera, it would maintain connection with my iPad. My old Olympus Pen EP-5 can be used across a large room for remote control with an iPhone. 

Wilson

[mike3996]

Do you think M10R bought some time for Leica wrt M11?

Do you think M11 will be announced within the next year?

What do you think will be the headline feature of M11 over M10P or M10R?

I personally think that M10R will be "it" for a while now. At least until 2022.

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[Paulus]

Yes

yes, 

don ‘t know anymore😀
 

I don’t

 

 

[Martin B]

33 minutes ago, mike3996 said:

Do you think M10R bought some time for Leica wrt M11?

Do you think M11 will be announced within the next year?

What do you think will be the headline feature of M11 over M10P or M10R?

I personally think that M10R will be "it" for a while now. At least until 2022.

I also believe the M10R will remain the high resolution flagship for at least 2-3 years to come. I could see the M11(R) adding IBIS and maybe a flip screen on the back of the camera (at least those are two things which I personally could see as improvement). 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Martin B