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Leica M10-R: New M-Flagship with 41 MP Sensor


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If Sony can fit IBIS with the full frame sensor in their new A7C camera, it would give Leica something to aim at by reverse engineering what Sony has done, albeit Leica has to cope with a longer flange focal distance of the M lenses. Whereas a swing out rear screen would be nice on a CL2, I see that as less of a requirement on an RF camera. If the choice was a fatter camera or no swing out screen, I personally would opt for the fixed screen as per M10-R. 

Wilson

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3 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

If Sony can fit IBIS with the full frame sensor in their new A7C camera, it would give Leica something to aim at by reverse engineering what Sony has done. 

Wilson

It's not that simple. Sony mount was developed with that in mind, leica M is older and being able to use old M lenses is a priority. Fitting IBIS is not impossible but will require thicker body or redesign of the IBIS system in a way it's same size as standard sensor mount. Another option will be to move or create a different back display and to use that space for IBIS.

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Regarding the discussion about the camera out-performing lenses, if you are concerned about that I will re-iterate the suggestion to go to Reid Reviews. I won’t quote anything he says since it’s his bread and butter and a subscription is so cheap compared to the cost of the camera or a lens, less expensive even than a Leica branded screen protector. The discussion under the 28mm lenses is edifying and addresses concerns people have about this topic, regardless of focal length. 

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1 hour ago, intermediatic said:

Regarding the discussion about the camera out-performing lenses, if you are concerned about that I will re-iterate the suggestion to go to Reid Reviews. 

Roger Cicala’s comments on the topic don’t require a subscription.  See the Appendix at the end of this article, with the heading “Why Perceptual Megapixels are Stupid”.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/
 

Jeff

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Am 17.9.2020 um 14:16 schrieb wlaidlaw:

If Sony can fit IBIS with the full frame sensor in their new A7C camera, it would give Leica something to aim at by reverse engineering what Sony has done, albeit Leica has to cope with a longer flange focal distance of the M lenses. Whereas a swing out rear screen would be nice on a CL2, I see that as less of a requirement on an RF camera. If the choice was a fatter camera or no swing out screen, I personally would opt for the fixed screen as per M10-R. 

Wilson

Whatever you can technically imagine will happen:

- We were told that over 40MPix was not possible and now Leica has it

- We are told that IBIS is not possible and now Sony made it.

Indeed the M11 will have IBIS.

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4 hours ago, M10 for me said:

Whatever you can technically imagine will happen:

We are talking Leica here, the most conservative (not politically) camera manufacturer.  Will they use ibis in an M body?  They had autofocus and didn't proceed with it.  

I can't make up my mind about ibis in an M, I guess if it was there I would use it only after testing the system to see what might be lost with the various lenses and their rendering.  Otoh I enjoy the challenge of keeping iso low, an adequate shutter speed (to reduce blur) and an aperture to give shallow or deep dof.  If the light doesn't cooperate I shoot anyway and occasionally  get something surprisingly good.  Technical perfection is no longer the holy grail for me.  

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I would like to get a updated leica compared to my m262 so i just sit there hoping it does not involve IBIS ,flippy screens and flimsy battery doors as well as most of all a built in cr**py EVF.

Keep it simple on m cameras please leica.

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vor 12 Stunden schrieb darylgo:

. . . I can't make up my mind about ibis in an M, I guess if it was there I would use it only after testing the system to see what might be lost with the various lenses and their rendering.  Otoh I enjoy the challenge of keeping iso low, an adequate shutter speed (to reduce blur) and an aperture to give shallow or deep dof.  If the light doesn't cooperate I shoot anyway and occasionally  get something surprisingly good.  Technical perfection is no longer the holy grail for me.  

You're right about possible loss in rendering. But note that in the Q2 the stabilizer is only active with 1/60s or slower and of course it can be turned off. Still I imagine that in low light you could work with much lower ISOs in still sceenes. I would love to see that whereas the EVF I personally would not want in the M. I must say that I am very well able to properly use the exposure metering of my M10 so that an EVF would not be a help for me (only true for me of course 😀). 

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On 9/19/2020 at 1:20 PM, M10 for me said:

Whatever you can technically imagine will happen:

- We were told that over 40MPix was not possible and now Leica has it

- We are told that IBIS is not possible and now Sony made it.

Indeed the M11 will have IBIS.

I agree with this. But if the M11 has IBIS it will take a while for the M11 to be released. I wonder if Leica might not fork their cameras at some point, with IBIS and a hybrid viewfinder in an MX (for want of a better name) while the M remains classic. 

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29 minutes ago, DAK Glasgow said:

Hi

Apologies if this question has been asked before but does anyone think Leica will offer sensor upgrade for the M10 p - would this be technically possible? 

 

Thanks

Why would you want to? Do you think it would be cheaper than trading your M10-P for a -R? Or are you deeply in love with your specific M10 body?

Wisdom is the benefits don't justify upgrade.

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30 minutes ago, DAK Glasgow said:

Apologies if this question has been asked before but does anyone think Leica will offer sensor upgrade for the M10 p - would this be technically possible? 

The only people who really know what the issues  are in upgrading an M10-D or M10-P to the R level, work at Leica and are not answering this question. 

If someone who owns both would like to take them apart and photograph their innards to see the differences (I think there is an M10 or M10-P takedown video on the web somewhere) we would know if there is some component of the R that just will not fit into the earlier models.  But I'm certainly not going to do that.  The Maestro processor, which has the 1GB buffer memory on the same chip, is apparently the same, although its instructions would have to be reprogrammed to handle the larger data stream., and retuned to the characteristics of the R/S3 sensors. If that requires changing some ROM, it might only work with additional chip replacements   Even if everything needed on the -R fits into an M10-P with only a little bit of soldering and new firmware, I would imagine that Leica is selling all the R's it can make and will do so for another year.  And offering both a 24 MPx and a 41 MPx M10 shoud let them satisfy the most customers, who should remain loyal in future years.  

So technically isn't the issue.  Upgrades sound like a waste of energy for Leica, when they probably have a five-year plan of future models to execute first.

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Alright, regarding IBIS - not happening soon if ever.  The one reason why everyone adapts Leica lenses to their system is that they have a very deep flange distance to the sensor (27+mm).  If you wanted to create an IBIS system for the M camera you would also need to increase the thickness of the camera while keeping the flange distance - this would make for a very thick camera indeed.  Also, remember, the lenses are not electronically coupled and at best the lens detection is a guess once the shot is taken (and if you check the EXIF - often wrong).  IBIS needs to know the precise focal length prior to recording the shot so that is can shit the sensor accordingly.  Incorporating an EVF in body is also not a great idea as it would turn off many many Leica users.  The optional route is still best.

What you will see?

Second card slot
Better battery
Faster response times (startup, etc.)
Lighter (perhaps?)
Better menu/ergonomics

I agree the M10-R will be the standard bearer for a few years to come before we will really see an M11.

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37 minutes ago, TopDownDriver said:

Alright, regarding IBIS - not happening soon if ever.  The one reason why everyone adapts Leica lenses to their system is that they have a very deep flange distance to the sensor (27+mm).  If you wanted to create an IBIS system for the M camera you would also need to increase the thickness of the camera while keeping the flange distance - this would make for a very thick camera indeed.  Also, remember, the lenses are not electronically coupled and at best the lens detection is a guess once the shot is taken (and if you check the EXIF - often wrong).  IBIS needs to know the precise focal length prior to recording the shot so that is can shit the sensor accordingly.  Incorporating an EVF in body is also not a great idea as it would turn off many many Leica users.  The optional route is still best.

What you will see?

Second card slot
Better battery
Faster response times (startup, etc.)
Lighter (perhaps?)
Better menu/ergonomics

I agree the M10-R will be the standard bearer for a few years to come before we will really see an M11.

Leica can incorporate AF into an M body with existing M lenses like the AF adaptor performs. 

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