M camera alternatives for a 13 year old

[stump4545]

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Would like to teach my daughter photography and I love the M system for its manual controls and basic functions.

Was thinking of picking up an M9 with a generic 35mm lens to get her started but pricey for a starter kit.

Any cheaper alternatives?

I just feel the M system with its simple controls is a great tool to slow down and learn the craft.

Hard to find a digital equivalent. 

Thank you

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[jaeger]

the question is... which camera has FF mirrorless, digital sensor, interchangeable lens and rangefinder focus. I think older Ricoh has it but it has less than 10MP as far as I can remember.

Edited June 25, 2020 by jaeger

[Michael Hiles]

Did you consider starting with film? There is much to learn by starting with the original technology. And cheaper than any digital Leica.

[stump4545]

I don't want to start with film.

Any thoughts on starting with a digital Ricoh GR or a Sony RX I?

 

[jdlaing]

You may look into a nice clean M-8.2 with a less expensive Voigtländer 28mm lens.

[dummilux]

I would consider getting her an easier camera, something with more auto settings. I believe it is essential that they enjoy making pictures first. Learning composition and the creative part of it will lead them toward the technical side.
 

Edit: RX-1would be a great choice. It’s a really fun camera and it’s tiny.

Edited June 25, 2020 by dummilux

[mmradman]

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If it has to be RF than there is no digital alternative, price is just consequence of that.

For anyone concerned about budget and less about RF there are myriad of APS-C and FF DSLRs and Mirrorless, fitted with basic normal lens or APS equivalent can do the job nicely.

For AF Nikon D40 with 35mm f1.8 DX can be brought for £/$ 200, plus simple SD card, no drama just pictures.

For Manual focus Mirrorless would be better option.

[stump4545]

RX 1 or GR III?

I am leaning toward RX 1 since it has more all around 35mm lens.......

[ECohen]

2 hours ago, stump4545 said:

I don't want to start with film.

Any thoughts on starting with a digital Ricoh GR or a Sony RX I?

 

 

I would start with either of those "pocket cameras" ... She is still a kid and ideas are more important than shutter speed and controls.

You don't want her losing interest as she will be of that generation where the phone will be her primary camera.

 

Isn't photography more about expressing yourself than the technical stuff ?

I'd go for a cheaper used GR as it would be more of a tool than a  precious object....after all its meant to be used and knocked around.

IMO

 

 

[Mute-on]

Perhaps look for something with an operable aperture ring and Av/Tv priority. 

For example, the Canon G7X ii that I use as a pocketable backup to film Ms has a ring around the lens that controls aperture with nice clicks, and other functions depending on settings. I find it very satisfying in use.

It has a very useful zoom (24-100) and produces excellent images, RAW and jpeg. It can also be used for video and selfies (which is bound to appeal to a 13yo, let’s face it). 

Good luck!

J

[adan]

I'm sorry, but how are a GRIII or RX1 or G7X in any way at all alternatives to a Leica M? They are operated like smartphones (no eye-level window finder, hold camera 0.5m in front of face and stare at screen in "Frankenstein pose," no dedicated analog control dials at all (just "modes" - push here while turning that - about as far away from Leica M as it is possible to get). Seriously, one might just as well use a smartphone - you at least get the added functionality of the phone.  

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If one wants actual, physical, manual rangefinder focusing in a digital, the only option outside of the Leica Ms is the Epson R-D1 from 2004 (the camera that gave Leica a kick up the behind when Leica was still insisting a digital rangefinder was "unfeasible.")

It has Cosina/Voigtlander mechanics with digital guts from Epson. Does use an M-mount, so would be an easy starter from which to step up to actual Leica-M cameras.

APS-C, 6 Mpixels (essentially the Sony sensor from the Nikon D100) - not really cheap even 16 years later, since they have a bit of a cult following. For another $100 one can get an M8. But lots of analog dials - and a thumb-wound shutter!

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2018/07/02/epson-r-d1-first-digital-rangefinder-camera/

https://www.google.com/search?q=epson+R-D1&client=firefox-b-1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjR38q-np7qAhWEUs0KHR09BD4Q_AUoAnoECAwQBA&biw=1828&bih=1248

I used an R-D1 for about 6 months. As a wide-angle lover, I wasn't excited by the APS-C crop factor, but was able to get a "22.5mm-equivalent f/4.5" by using the C/V 15mm. But it kept my M lenses alive and working until the M8 came out.

________________

Now, if all one wants is an "auto-focus, kind-Leica-look-alike" but with dedicated manual control dials/rings and a black-leatherette-and-silver retro finish, then the Fuji X100 series has been massively successful, and kicked off the entire X line. With a fixed lens*, it is really more of a "digital Canonet/Konica S3" with a 35mm-equivalent 23mm f/2.0 lens. But many people use their real Leicas with just a 35 or 50. Also APS-C sensor.

With 4 upgrades out there over ~10 years (designated S-for second, T-for-third, F-for-fourth, and now V-for-fifth), one can pick a price point between $350 and $800 used - lens included.

And even brand-new, the X100V is $1400. Mpixels range from 12 to 26 over the years.

https://www.kenrockwell.com/fuji/x100.htm

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x100v-review/2

______________
* front-mount "wide" and "tele" adapters/converters are available for "28mm" and "50mm" equivalent framing.

[GRBrown]

Adan mentioned the "Frankenstein pose" when taking pictures with a smartphone. I've always liked photographer Kirk Tuck's description of smartphone users doing the "stinky baby diaper hold".

[david strachan]

M camera is unsuitable IMO.

No macro, or close-focus, difficult to focus, tricky framing, not enough viewfinder info, heavy and over expensive, etc, etc.

I'd start with a nice autofocus, fixed lens like a Fuji. Identify the aspect of photography she likes the most, without imposing your wishes.

Or a v cheap XE-1 with kit lenses 18-55mm and 55-200...should get the lot for perhaps $500. Will give v good images, and take just about any lenses.

No live view in the earlier M cameras is a big drawback for a youngster.

...

Edited June 26, 2020 by david strachan

[RayD28]

Do you have a spare M and common lens that you could easily replace?  Thirteen is close to if not a responsible age. If you don't already have insurance coverage you can get an equipment rider on your home owner's insurance policy that covers practically all types of loss (drops, theft, lost, etc).  I have a modest kit and the premium is < $250 annually.  For me rare lenses would be off limits but a common 35MM or 50MM can easily be replaced.  Using a UV filter and/or lens hood would help protect the glass. Might as well start with something basic where focus, shutter speed, and ISO are the priorities.  She'd probably build the foundation quickly and then move on to composition.  

Let her pick a fashionable strap and she'll probably use it most of the time and that reduces the risk of damage and becoming lost.  

I agree digital is the way to go so she can see results quickly.  Film and home developing might come later.  

My 2 cents.

Ray

Edited June 26, 2020 by RayD28

[kegon]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb stump4545:

I just feel the M system with its simple controls is a great tool to slow down and learn the craft.

But can also be a great source of frustration for a 13 year old kid... What is she interested in? What would she like to make photos of? This should also be considered. If you impose on her, she might start hating photography...

[Jean-Michel]

Eons ago, when I was into astronomy and had a rather decent telescope, friends would ask for my advice on buying a telescope for they child. They were looking at ads for fairly inexpensive scopes and were dismayed when I recommended that they forego the useless cheap telescope and spend the same cash on a subscription to a star gazing magazine and  decent binoculars. 

If your child is really interested in making photographs, and wants a camera of her or his own, first see if you can lend or give one of yours. Or go shopping – ideally at a real camera store – for a camera and lens. That expedition or two will be a learning experience on its own. 

Once Covid abates, go to a book store or gallery or museum shop and let your child browse through photo books. 

Since your child probably already has access to a cellphone camera and already sees and  posts images on some platform, show her the beauty of real photographs. Buy a printer! Check out the Epson PictureMate 400, an inexpensive but excellent printer capable of making 3x5, 4x6 and 5x7 prints. Bonus: you also can use it yourself for quick prints.

No need to overly worry about the mechanics of any camera. Anyone can learn the basics of operations in one afternoon. Basic+ takes a little longer.

And, do not get crushed if after a time the child's interest changes from your own to anew one of her or his choosing.

Jean-Michel

 

[pippy]

19 hours ago, dummilux said:

I would consider getting her an easier camera, something with more auto settings. I believe it is essential that they enjoy making pictures first...

With all due respect I'd say exactly the opposite would be a much more constructive approach. If the OP's daughter is truly interested in learning photography then I'd say buy her something as manual as possible and with TTL metering. Lessons / mistakes will be learned VERY rapidly - the screen on the back provides instant feedback - and those lessons will be deeply ingrained.

To which point I'd echo jdlaing's suggestion of an M8 / M8.2 with either a 28mm or 35mm Voigt. lens (which would become roughly 35mm / 50mm FF equiv.).

Philip.

[Overgaard]

The Leica Q second-hand could be something, but else a good old Leica Digilux 2. I've had a series of young people whom I got onto that one.

It depends also if she should take it over the shoulder and go photography, or it has to fit into a bag. Ricoh GR III or older could also be a thing, but yes, it's difficult to find cameras with possible manual settings. The Leica D-Lux 7 now has speed dial on to, and aperture on the lens, though still a lot of other buttons and menu points that complicate things. 

 

(Below is a lucky kid. First his parents ordered one with dead sensor. We returned that and found another in mint condition for $399 on Amazon. When it arrived, it had original Leica filters, remote trigger, and the rare Macro filter, which in itself is worth more than the entire camera).

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pop]

It does not matter. If she wants to learn, she will learn. There's no stopping young people who are determined to learn something. Ideally, you'd choose a camera where all things automatic can be turned off. You'd also choose a camera which can accomodate a reasonable set of needs. Out of personal experience, I swore I'd never buy a digital camera again which lacks a view finder.

One of the Sony NEXes will do fine without breaking the bank (and without growing nervous about dropping the camera or leaving it behind somewhere). I personally find the NEX-5N with its external viewfinder very useful and robust. My favorite lens on that body turns out to be the Leica Summicron-C 40mm 1:2, but any of the native lenses (even the set lenses) will do and can be had for quite reasonable amounts of money.

[FrozenInTime]

As Adan suggested, I also think one the X100 family would fit the bill - looks and handles close enough to a M for a beginner with the added flexibility of EVF and LCD.

There is also the fun little polaroid like printer for the X100F onwards.

I would never give a Leica to anyone who did not first have the baseline knowledge to appreciate why it was different.

Edited June 26, 2020 by FrozenInTime