"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[Chaemono]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

See #251 and #252 at ISO 100. Whenever Shadows are lifted by 100 and then Exposure is adjusted to get a bright enough picture, depending on the scene, the files can fall apart. In #252 Exposure is +1.35 for the S1R picture and +1.2 for the CL one.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[lct]

I meant w/o lifting shadows or otherwise pushing in PP. At what iso level do you begin to see banding when you expose your pics correctly? Out of the M240, i would say 6400 for instance. Out of the Sony A7s, 25600. And out of the S1R? Just curious again.

[Chaemono]

Oh, no, when I introduced my comparisons in #223, I stated clearly that I thought that Panasonic folks are smart cookies. Clever algorithms clean up the files. I don’t think ISO 3200 noise is bad at all. I’m actually surprised high good the S1R files are at ISO 3200. I haven’t gone above this because that would only be required in 0.2 percent of the time given how good the Panasonic IBIS is. Shooting indoor action in dark places may require ISO 6400 and higher but, frankly, AF performance starts to become the main issue then. I’d say low light performance of the S1R except for fast action that the AF can’t capture in bad light anyway is very good. The issue for me is malleability of the files. There is one thing I hate more than high ISO noise and that is when files start to fall apart after Shadows have been lifted by 100.

[NicholasT]

5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I think the innovation discussion is a bit of a sidetrack to what matters. It would be difficult Leica to be innovators with sensors or purely technological features like IBIS, because they are not a giant technology company like Sony, Fuji or Panasonic. All three are massive engineering and technology companies for which the consumer imaging division is a blip on the radar. Leica's innovation comes in lens design and in taking existing technologies and high manufacturing precision and making them into well-thought out high performing cameras. This is not to say they have never innovated...they pioneered aspherical elements, autofocus and the entire 35mm format. Of course all of those were decades ago. These days, the S was a very innovative camera when it was released (before the D800, if people might recall...), as was the Q, and even the SL. But again, I think this is tangential to what really matters: whether they can deliver a camera that gives us something different and better than other camera manufacturers.  Now that the L mount is open and we have more options to use the L mount glass, this is trickier. I own the S1 and it is a remarkably good camera at a comparatively low price. I hope that Leica will be able to offer a truly compelling alternative. I do not care if it is bleeding edge technology, only that it is a better overall camera...that is more Leica's strength.

+1

Very well stated.

SL2 release is the ultimate Product Management challenge. Original SL was by any measure a success particularly considering the limited availability of prime SL glass at introduction.

Now there's a far better selection of high quality lens (SL summicron's are stellar) but the competitive scene has clearly changed. Leica's  product management challenge in setting design goals for the SL2  had  to involve on one hand "not breaking what ain't  broken in the SL"  ( do I hear 4 button setup ?) while at same time offering enhancements worthy of an upgrade in what is a relatively long 4 year release cycle, not to mention factoring in the Leica "premium".

The combination of improvements when seen as a whole should  represent on some level the next "logical" step for the SL. Also as so many have already stated that simply can't be an S1R in Leica skin and with a more elegant/simplified user interface.

I trust that the company that gave us the Q, SL, CL and Q2 will be smart enough to figure this out. We'll soon know the answer.

[lct]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Oh, no, when I introduced my comparisons in #223, I stated clearly that I thought that Panasonic folks are smart cookies. Clever algorithms clean up the files. I don’t think ISO 3200 noise is bad at all. I’m actually surprised high good the S1R files are at ISO 3200. I haven’t gone above this because that would only be required in 0.2 percent of the time given how good the Panasonic IBIS is. Shooting indoor action in dark places may require ISO 6400 and higher but, frankly, AF performance starts to become the main issue then. I’d say low light performance of the S1R except for fast action that the AF can’t capture in bad light anyway is very good. The issue for me is malleability of the files. There is one thing I hate more than high ISO noise and that is when files start to fall apart after Shadows have been lifted by 100.

Thank you for the compliment but malleability is just an attribute of clean files and clever algorithms cannot do miracles if the files are too noisy. They can only smear noisy files and i would not expect Leica to abuse of that. If the limit w/o banding is 6400 iso this is not huge indeed but i'm not sure high rez competitors can do much better than that. 

[Chaemono]

If you want to know what the issue with the S1R sensor is at above ISO 3200, which, as I said, didn’t go to, read Steve Huff’s comments on the Q2 sensor’s low light performance at higher ISO values here: https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/03/27/the-leica-q2-real-world-review-and-experience-worth-the-5k/ 

[lct]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

As per the DPR comparison tool, the S1R looks indeed more noisy at 6400 iso than the Nikon Z7 but less so than the Sony A7r4. All more noisy than good 24MP's for sure but there is no free lunch.
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dc-s1r-review/7

[Tailwagger]

34 minutes ago, lct said:

...but there is no free lunch.

Waiting around for almost a year now and no free lunch?  Sigh. Okay, I'm willing to pony up, but I want something tasty and smooth, not acrid and gritty! 😀

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Tailwagger said:

Waiting around for almost a year now and no free lunch?  

I thought the signs for the flagship  restaurant made the 4 year menu rotation pretty evident.

Jeff

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Jeff S:

I thought the signs for the flagship  restaurant made the 4 year menu rotation pretty evident.

Jeff

Yes, but the food that will be served allegedly includes some ingredients whose ‘best before date’ has passed. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Chaemono

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Yes, but the food that will be served allegedly uses some ingredients whose ‘best before date’ has passed. 

I trust the chef to still make a great meal, which is all that matters to me.  The customer doesn’t know what goes on in the kitchen, or what pots and pans were used.

Jeff

[Chaemono]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Jeff S:

I trust the chef to still make a great meal, which is all that matters to me.  The customer doesn’t know what goes on in the kitchen, or what pots and pans were used.

Jeff

Obviously, some patrons can’t tell the difference between fresh and frozen steak, particularly if it has been spiced up with lots of megapixels. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Chaemono

[Jeff S]

Customers always decide, and either come back or go elsewhere. Not many restaurants last decades, especially at high end prices. Nothing new, and always a challenge. 

The more important issue is whether one can be a good home chef, regardless the available ingredients and kitchen tools.

Jeff

[sillbeers15]

It is already 20th in Asia. So another 4 more days to SL2 announcement as predicted by Leicarumor or further delay?

[nicci78]

https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/09/19/the-leica-sl2-leaked-here-is-what-it-may-look-like-and-some-specs/

 

Steve H. with his psychic power talk about an October huge Leica event. He was invited but declined, due to conflicting schedule. 

May be a joint launch of SL2 and S3 for the professional audience. 

[sillbeers15]

Damn. Steve sugar coats everything. Listening to him makes no difference coming from a used car dealer. 

[Chaemono]

I find Steve Huff’s remarks on the rumored SL2 balanced and not too enthusiastic. 

Edited September 20, 2019 by Chaemono

[nicci78]

What did you expect ? He doesn’t like the Q2 due to not good to his very very dark environment shooting environment. 

If SL2 used the same same sensor. It will be the same problem 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[nicci78]

What did you expect ? He doesn’t like the Q2 due to not good to his very very dark environment shooting environment. 

If SL2 used the same same sensor. It will be the same problem 

[Chaemono]

Steve Huff has a huge following. His opinion will matter. It’s a well known fact that he likes Leica (Sony, the X1D for its compactness and IQ, and now the Lumix S1, too). It’s very likely, therefore, that he is predisposed to asses the SL2 positively, but not if it has the S1R sensor, I’m afraid. I hope Leica read his Q2 review. But even if they did, it would had been too late to reconsider their choice of sensor which, if Nokishita has been provided with accurate information, has a ‘best before Sept. 25th 2018’ date on it.