"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[Mr.Q]

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Leica has never led the field in tech so I'm not sure why anyone would think that would change with the SL2.  Quite frankly, if you are expecting class-leading tech you will be disappointed.

I do expect some innovation in terms of usability and controls. I love the current 4-button layout, so I'm curious how they're going to change that.

Other than that, I would be satisfied with a slighter smaller/lighter body, and a S1R sensor with a microlens design to support M lenses.  Too bad PDAF seems like a no go this time around.  At the very least, please give us the option to turn off LENR!

[LocalHero1953]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

Leica has never led the field in tech so I'm not sure why anyone would think that would change with the SL2.  Quite frankly, if you are expecting class-leading tech you will be disappointed.

I do expect some innovation in terms of usability and controls. I love the current 4-button layout, so I'm curious how they're going to change that.

Other than that, I would be satisfied with a slighter smaller/lighter body, and a S1R sensor with a microlens design to support M lenses.  Too bad PDAF seems like a no go this time around.  At the very least, please give us the option to turn off LENR!

SL - EVF

M9 - FF ILC

TL2 - menu interface

And do optics not count as tech? Or are they designed and made by trial and error?

😁

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by LocalHero1953

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[nicci78]

16 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

SL - EVF

M9 - FF ILC

TL2 - menu interface

And do optics not count as tech?

😁

 

Actually Canon 1DS was the first full frame ILC in 2002... 7 years before the M9.  Which is a rangefinder and cannot be considered as a proper mirrorless one. No EVF and no live view.

T touch interface, which is a mere attempt to copy smartphone UI, seems to be in dead water for Leica. They are rolling out across the board, the 3 buttons and menu system interface. Which was introduced with M10 then perfected with CL.

SL just used the last and best Epson EVF. Which was available for any competitor (including Olympus the other Epson customer). But they all choose to ditch EVF tech for superior OLED one. So SL EVF tech was a dead end.

 

SL lenses double AF motor system, is already in use in Panasonic and Fujifilm optics. Not sure if they are real optics break through from Leica. Rather than unlimited money to produced the best, but the most expensive glass possible.

 

Leica seems also ready to ditch their build material advantage. They are ditching aluminium, with its typical cold metal feel, for the more mundane magnesium. It starts with Q2, rumoured photos shows that SL2 must be using 100% magnesium body. Leica will have the exact same build quality as their Japanese competitors, which is quite lame. 

 

Innovation ? not sure. But economical manufacturing seems to be the new Leica mantra since the polycarbonate TL and SL lenses. Hopefully they still have aluminium shell. But for how long ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by nicci78

[Mr.Q]

19 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

SL - EVF

M9 - FF ILC

TL2 - menu interface

And do optics not count as tech? Or are they designed and made by trial and error?

😁

 

The OLED top display on the SL was also a first. I'd classify those as "innovation in usability and controls" (including the TL2 menu)  Like I said, that type of stuff gets me excited.

And by tech I meant electronics. I didn't think I'd have to clarify that.

[Chaemono]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Mr.Q:

Leica has never led the field in tech so I'm not sure why anyone would think that would change with the SL2.

Even if this were true, the competitive dynamics have changed with the L-mount alliance. The situation is, therefore, not comparable to the past.

vor 1 Minute schrieb Mr.Q:

And by tech I meant electronics. I didn't think I'd have to clarify that.

Leica has shown with the CL that leading sensor tech matters. 

[Mr.Q]

5 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Leica has shown with the CL that leading sensor tech matters. 

How so? Has the CL been a smash-hit like the Q?

Besides, the CL performs identically to the Sony A6300 sensor released in 2016, so it wasn't really leading anything in 2018.

[nicci78]

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22 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

The OLED top display on the SL was also a first. I'd classify those as "innovation in usability and controls" (including the TL2 menu)  Like I said, that type of stuff gets me excited.

And by tech I meant electronics. I didn't think I'd have to clarify that.

You are right about OLED top display but it was introduced first with 2009 Leica S2. Then in coloured version with S typ 006. SL stick with monochrom one only.

PhaseOne are also using coloured OLED for a long time.

Sadly Leica has not switch yet to superior always ON eInk top panel. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by nicci78

[nicci78]

but who cares ? Leica is not at the forefront of innovation. It is all about heritage (M) and really easy user interface. 

[LocalHero1953]

32 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Actually Canon 1DS was the first full frame ILC in 2002... 7 years before the M9.  Which is a rangefinder and cannot be considered as a proper mirrorless one. No EVF and no live view.

T touch interface, which is a mere attempt to copy smartphone UI, seems to be in dead water for Leica. They are rolling out across the board, the 3 buttons and menu system interface. Which was introduced with M10 then perfected with CL.

SL just used the last and best Epson EVF. Which was available for any competitor (including Olympus the other Epson customer). But they all choose to ditch EVF tech for superior OLED one. So SL EVF tech was a dead end.

 

SL lenses double AF motor system, is already in use in Panasonic and Fujifilm optics. Not sure if they are real optics break through from Leica. Rather than unlimited money to produced the best, but the most expensive glass possible.

 

Leica seems also ready to ditch their build material advantage. They are ditching aluminium, with its typical cold metal feel, for the more mundane magnesium. It starts with Q2, rumoured photos shows that SL2 must be using 100% magnesium body. Leica will have the exact same build quality as their Japanese competitors, which is quite lame. 

 

Innovation ? not sure. But economical manufacturing seems to be the new Leica mantra since the polycarbonate TL and SL lenses. Hopefully they still have aluminium shell. But for how long ? 

 

Typo - I meant M9 - FF MILC

Well, you can declare some things "dead in the water", but that is different from saying they were not innovative or leading the field. The T was successful enough to create the TL2 just two years ago.

Yes, the SL uses someone else's EVF (don't all camera makers, when you look at who actually makes their electronics?), but it was still class leading, and still probably no. 2 or so

I can't get excited by whether a body is made of aluminium alloyed with magnesium or magnesium alloyed with aluminium. Half the time it is written by people who actually mean the other!

[Chaemono]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Mr.Q:

Besides, the CL performs identically to the Sony A6300 sensor released in 2016, so it wasn't really leading anything in 2018.

You make exactly my point. Leica went for the same sensor as in the A6500 because it was “leading” in 2017 when they chose their sensor supplier.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Mr.Q:

How so? Has the CL been a smash-hit like the Q?

We agree, again. The CL is priced at a premium with not enough electronics differentiation. The SL2 with the same electronics as the S1R priced at least 2.5x higher will suffer the same fate. 

vor 8 Minuten schrieb nicci78:

It is all about heritage (M) and really easy user interface. 

The SL is all about competition in the ILMC market which doesn’t have a heritage LOL.

[jaapv]

59 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Leica seems also ready to ditch their build material advantage. They are ditching aluminium, with its typical cold metal feel, for the more mundane magnesium. It starts with Q2, rumoured photos shows that SL2 must be using 100% magnesium body. Leica will have the exact same build quality as their Japanese competitors, which is quite lame. 

Huh? Leica has been using magnesium alloys since before WWII. Yes, they used Aluminum, Zinc, Brass, etc over the years for various reasons, but I think that Aluminum (like Zinc) is a dead-end technology for them.

As long as magnesium is good enough for high-stress lightweight Formula 1 parts, I think it won't be too bad for lowly cameras.

[sillbeers15]

1 hour ago, Mr.Q said:

Leica has never led the field in tech so I'm not sure why anyone would think that would change with the SL2.  Quite frankly, if you are expecting class-leading tech you will be disappointed.

I do expect some innovation in terms of usability and controls. I love the current 4-button layout, so I'm curious how they're going to change that.

Other than that, I would be satisfied with a slighter smaller/lighter body, and a S1R sensor with a microlens design to support M lenses.  Too bad PDAF seems like a no go this time around.  At the very least, please give us the option to turn off LENR!

I think Leica needs more customers like you who do not ask for much.

Most of us might be willing to pay for Leica camera because we have seen for ourselves the performance of Leica glass. Now especially the SL glasses that are better than M glasses. The SL might have been something little less in leading class AF-C tracking but it has been transforming nothing short in image performance from the Leica SL glasses. 

If you ask for compact size and could care less of AF performance, the M10 is perfect. Leica need not produce another M10 clone bigger in size.

The SL is in my opinion still a great mirrorless camera. It broke new grounds four years ago when I bought it along with building the SL lenses with it into one of the best FF system money can buy. Today the landscape has somewhat changed with S1R being L mount and I consider it just a renewed SL platform ( it is not in any sense a bad camera in my opinion, just that it did not break new grounds from the SL). Now most Leica users are not dumb although we have the money to afford. I would expect the SL2 to an update of the SL addressing the current SL’s weakness in AF-C tracking in reliability and a up to date sensor coupled with a faster processor ( where the S1R still lets down in the CDAF still not getting the focus pin sharp frame after frame in AF-C tracking although it clearly is better than the four years old SL). Leica could also choose to use the hybrid PDAF if it chooses  a Sony sensor as an alternative. Else we can now choose to pay for SL lenses + S1R if the SL2 disappoints. I doubt Leica will be so dumb to take the gamble to produce a SL2 as a rebadged S1R since the continue success of Leica SL means a lot to the brand.

Moreover it is likely that we are 12 to 15 months away from a S2R that will likely address the weakness of the S1R.

Leica, you better buck up.

Edited September 19, 2019 by sillbeers15

[michali]

The game is changing, here's an excerpt from an email  just received from a Medium Format forum, the first 2 paragraphs are eye opening:

"[…] On Photokina 2020, some of the big camera brands will not have a booth there anymore. Nikon, Leica and Olympus will not be there. Who knows, which other brand will join that list. The signs on the wall could not be bigger on how the whole industry changes.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by michali
Quote edited to core message

[Chaemono]

It makes sense. Because of the delays, Leica will introduce or has introduced major products this year (S3, SL2, Q2). M11 and CL2 likely won’t come until 2021. They will, therefore, have nothing to talk about next year and might as well save the cost. Since they are on a four year product cycle anyway, they might as well go every fourth year. 😁

[jaapv]

There may be some denial on the part of Photokina here. The Internet is challenging trade shows as a marketing channel. 

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

but who cares ? Leica is not at the forefront of innovation.

Camera bodies, perhaps. How can you be when the product life cycle is 4+ years.  Optics, thats another matter. I recall often wondering back when the M10 was introduced why so many people moaned about the sensor being 24mpx, no IBIS, BSI, etc and yet didn't buy a SoNiCon with all that stuff and double the pixels. Answer: Glass (yea RF too).  Thats what keeps me in the fold and keeps the SLs and S1Rs of the world competitive.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Tailwagger

[Stuart Richardson]

I think the innovation discussion is a bit of a sidetrack to what matters. It would be difficult Leica to be innovators with sensors or purely technological features like IBIS, because they are not a giant technology company like Sony, Fuji or Panasonic. All three are massive engineering and technology companies for which the consumer imaging division is a blip on the radar. Leica's innovation comes in lens design and in taking existing technologies and high manufacturing precision and making them into well-thought out high performing cameras. This is not to say they have never innovated...they pioneered aspherical elements, autofocus and the entire 35mm format. Of course all of those were decades ago. These days, the S was a very innovative camera when it was released (before the D800, if people might recall...), as was the Q, and even the SL. But again, I think this is tangential to what really matters: whether they can deliver a camera that gives us something different and better than other camera manufacturers.  Now that the L mount is open and we have more options to use the L mount glass, this is trickier. I own the S1 and it is a remarkably good camera at a comparatively low price. I hope that Leica will be able to offer a truly compelling alternative. I do not care if it is bleeding edge technology, only that it is a better overall camera...that is more Leica's strength.

[Chaemono]

If the definition of ‘better overall camera’ includes ‘better’ pushing of the RAW file limits, then an SL2 with the S1R/Q2 sensor is a contradiction in terms. 😂

[Stuart Richardson]

I think it can include lots of things. I do not think pushing raw file limits is necessarily required for a good camera. Slide film offers 4-5 stops of good dynamic range...the S1R has what, 14? If you cannot make a good photo with 14 stops of dynamic range, I would submit that the problem is less the camera than the photographer. While it is always nice to have extra dynamic range, I only say this to indicate that there are any number of different criteria. I think throwing the camera out before it has even had a chance to come to market just because it might use the same sensor (which is only part of the rest of the entire image chain) might be a bit premature.

Edited September 19, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[lct]

35 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

If the definition of ‘better overall camera’ includes ‘better’ pushing of the RAW file limits, then an SL2 with the S1R/Q2 sensor is a contradiction in terms. 😂

Depends on the limits. Letting pushing aside, at what iso level banding begins to appear out of the S1R? Below or above 3200 iso? Just curious.