Guest Posted March 27, 2017 Share #581 Posted March 27, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I haven't read through all 30 pages, but I didn't notice anyone talk about some of the real deficiencies of the M10 vs the M240: - increased viewfinder magnification; this is a big deal if you shoot wide-angle because it means you can't see the framelines on a 28mm lens with the OVF. I would rather use the EVF for the occasional telephoto shoot, which is not what the M series is good at, then for wide-angle use. - reduced battery life; personally, I would rather have an extra ~2mm thickness - ISO dial is not a deal-breaker, but it's dumb. First, fine adjustment must still be made through the menu. Second, the user interface is inconsistent with the way the other dials work. Why lift up to turn and down to lock? Is that how the shutter, aperture, or focus work?! Of course not. I'm really scratching my head over why Leica broke one of the biggest rules in UI design. Perhaps as a nostalgic throwback to when you had to lift the dial to rewind the film? I agree, I do find the ISO dial somewhat dumb, what were they thinking? Better I think to have left the top without it, cleaner. An interesting point regarding the increased viewfinder magnification, that's something I'll have to take into serious consideration as I so rarely use an M with focal lengths longer than 50mm, 28mm being my "normal", hmmm. Battery life? What are M10 users getting now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 27, 2017 Posted March 27, 2017 Hi Guest, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Surge Posted March 27, 2017 Share #582 Posted March 27, 2017 Yes, I did forget that the viewfinder is larger, so despite the magnification, the 28mm lines are easier to see. I have not handled the M10 yet. Apparently, buying a Noctilux at a Leica Store in Paris is not enough to have the opportunity to handle the M10. They had one in the window but didn't take it out! Anyway, it is now clear that the M10 is a great improvement over the M240. I just don't see it being a worthwhile upgrade over the M240. I spent the price difference on a new lens! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
olgierdc Posted March 27, 2017 Share #583 Posted March 27, 2017 I haven't read through all 30 pages, but I didn't notice anyone talk about some of the real deficiencies of the M10 vs the M240: - increased viewfinder magnification; this is a big deal if you shoot wide-angle because it means you can't see the framelines on a 28mm lens with the OVF. I would rather use the EVF for the occasional telephoto shoot, which is not what the M series is good at, then for wide-angle use. - reduced battery life; personally, I would rather have an extra ~2mm thickness - ISO dial is not a deal-breaker, but it's dumb. First, fine adjustment must still be made through the menu. Second, the user interface is inconsistent with the way the other dials work. Why lift up to turn and down to lock? Is that how the shutter, aperture, or focus work?! Of course not. I'm really scratching my head over why Leica broke one of the biggest rules in UI design. Perhaps as a nostalgic throwback to when you had to lift the dial to rewind the film? I think you've asked yourself the wrong question. The good question is: What has not changed in the new camera? I can not point out what has remained unchanged. Everything has changed, sometimes a lot, but at the same time, it is the same Leica M. And it is the most beautiful, because now the experience of using the M10 is incomparably better than the previous models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 27, 2017 Share #584 Posted March 27, 2017 I haven't read through all 30 pages, but I didn't notice anyone talk about some of the real deficiencies of the M10 vs the M240: - increased viewfinder magnification; this is a big deal if you shoot wide-angle because it means you can't see the framelines on a 28mm lens with the OVF. - reduced battery life; personally, I would rather have an extra ~2mm thickness - ISO dial is not a deal-breaker, but it's dumb. I would have to disagree with every one of your points. The viewfinder magnification isn't the issue you make it out to be because, as already pointed out, the viewfinder is larger and has greater eye relief. So 28mm frame lines are still visible. And most people who have used it state that it is easier to achieve focus and they are getting less misfocus with difficult lenses like the Nocti. So the viewfinder is a plus, not a minus. The reduced battery life is a minor inconvenience, at worst. It is not difficult to carry a spare battery or two. The ISO dial is, in my mind, an excellent design. I hate having to go into menus to change an exposure parameter. I love being able to glance down at my camera, before I have even turned it on, and know the settings for ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. I love that you can lock it down on a particular setting and it won't get inadvertently changed, but when you are shooting in highly variable light, you can leave it up and quickly change it as necessary. And the beauty of it is that if you prefer to set it manually in the menus, you can leave it set on M and never mess with the dial. Personally, I don't think it harms the esthetics of the camera at all and is a nice upgrade in usability from previous digital M's. So I don't really see any of your points as serious deficiencies of the M10 vs. the M240. The battery life is probably the biggest potential deficiency and I just don't see that as all that big of a deal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted March 27, 2017 Share #585 Posted March 27, 2017 I love the ISO knob too. It is a must for such a manually operated camera. Only one thing about it: Why have you to pull it up to use that knob? I would prefer that it could freely be turned. Anyway: On my M10 that knob is always in the UP position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted March 27, 2017 Share #586 Posted March 27, 2017 I love the ISO knob too. It is a must for such a manually operated camera. Only one thing about it: Why have you to pull it up to use that knob? I would prefer that it could freely be turned. Anyway: On my M10 that knob is always in the UP position. I love the new ISO knob as well...one of my favorite additions. Regarding pulling up to operate...it works well, simply leave it up while shooting. I only lock it when I know I won't be changing the ISO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted March 27, 2017 Share #587 Posted March 27, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I love the new ISO knob as well...one of my favorite additions. Regarding pulling up to operate...it works well, simply leave it up while shooting. I only lock it when I know I won't be changing the ISO Right. I fully agree with you. I would wish that the APERTURE Ring would have such a LOCK instead. But no big problem. Unfortunately I rather often change the set aperture without wanting to change it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted March 27, 2017 Share #588 Posted March 27, 2017 I only collected my camea and spare battery yesterday but already I agree that the changes are great. The RF is significantly better. Focusing my 135mm is a breeze. Never had that before. I like the ISO dial. Not so much the operation but that I can see the settings with the camera off. I do like how it makes the camera look. I don't like the smaller battery. But I do like the new camera size much better so I will live with the battery change without complaint. However, why did Leica not make the charger the same as the 240? The battery fits but they've moved the pins across a few mm so no they don't line up with the M240 battery. Doh! The EVF performance is much improved. It isn't the SL but way better than the 240 and I appreciate that I can have GPS without a grip. For me, a worthwhile upgrade. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 28, 2017 Share #589 Posted March 28, 2017 I only collected my camea and spare battery yesterday but already I agree that the changes are great. The RF is significantly better. Focusing my 135mm is a breeze. Never had that before. I like the ISO dial. Not so much the operation but that I can see the settings with the camera off. I do like how it makes the camera look. I don't like the smaller battery. But I do like the new camera size much better so I will live with the battery change without complaint. However, why did Leica not make the charger the same as the 240? The battery fits but they've moved the pins across a few mm so no they don't line up with the M240 battery. Doh! The EVF performance is much improved. It isn't the SL but way better than the 240 and I appreciate that I can have GPS without a grip. For me, a worthwhile upgrade. Gordon Agreed on the 135mm! It is a really pleasant camera to use. I never had a 240 or any other M back to the M6. I did have the SL, and I do appreciate very much the weight and size aspect of this lovely M10. Focussing now most of the time with the RF. Ocassionally I resorted to the LV and focus peaking, so great to have that available. Not sure I could get on with an M without LV screen on back. On the other hand I would miss a few shots, so what .... unless of course those were the missing masterpieces! Battery life is almost always an issue of one degree or another, in anything that is powered that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 17, 2017 Share #590 Posted April 17, 2017 For those who did't believe that the connector remains under the baseplate, for usb, flash, power source etc. here is a picture for proof posted in the german page by member Foton. Come on Leica, give us back the functionality we need USB, flash port etc in a grip and move the movie button to it! http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/271214-frühlingsfest-bei-calumet/?p=3251826 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269227-m10-sorry-no/?do=findComment&comment=3256676'>More sharing options...
rwchisholm Posted April 17, 2017 Share #591 Posted April 17, 2017 The M10 is, in a word, fantastic. Coming from the M9--what a difference! Love the thinner body, the more responsive shutter and the ISO dial. People seem to think you pull it up then lock it then up again to change... if you are in rapidly changing light and need to adapt ISO on the fly just leave it up. It's a great feature once you realize how it was meant to be utilized. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.noctilux Posted April 17, 2017 Share #592 Posted April 17, 2017 That ISO wheel is very nice. When changing ISO, the setting can be seen in M10 finder (only less than 1s, then the speed choosen by the camera in "A" mode). Be aware with M setting : I have set "M" to 10 000 ISO and in finder only "1 000" show when changing from other settings by feel. Not a big bug for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted April 20, 2017 Share #593 Posted April 20, 2017 So, has Olsen bought an M10 yet? Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
horosu Posted April 21, 2017 Share #594 Posted April 21, 2017 I've seen lots of people happy about the better ISO range, slimmer body, etc. What I'd like to know is how much faster this camera is. Has anyone compared boot & wake-up times with M24x bodies? The fastest M cameras are still the film ones, where you have only to focus and press the shutter. Digital M's need to wake up before pressing the shutter button and some spontaneous shots are lost. Having the camera always on is no option with the M10's poor battery life. Thank you Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stef63 Posted April 21, 2017 Share #595 Posted April 21, 2017 Never had an issue with wake-up an M240. Press the shutter to wake-up the cam, raise to your eye, frame, focus, check exposure, adapt exposure to the scene, press button ... not a problem with the M240 nor with the M10 for my type of work. And the smaller battery problem of the M10 is a problem mostly invented by people not owning an M10... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 22, 2017 Share #596 Posted April 22, 2017 ........... The fastest M cameras are still the film ones, where you have only to focus and press the shutter. Digital M's need to wake up before pressing the shutter button and some spontaneous shots are lost. Having the camera always on is no option with the M10's poor battery life. Thank you Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Except for the M7! It takes a similar time to 'wake up' from turning on as do digital M's. I have missed just as many shots with an M7 as I have with an M8, 9 and 10 for that reason. However, I am NOT blaming the cameras, I know there is a disciplined work around. If I don't follow that discipline, the fault is mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
horosu Posted April 22, 2017 Share #597 Posted April 22, 2017 Except for the M7! It takes a similar time to 'wake up' from turning on as do digital M's. I have missed just as many shots with an M7 as I have with an M8, 9 and 10 for that reason. However, I am NOT blaming the cameras, I know there is a disciplined work around. If I don't follow that discipline, the fault is mine. I have the MP (film camera), so, I don't know how the M7 behaves. I thought it was 'always on'.... As for the disciplined workflow, that works if you have a predictable scene before your eyes. Spontaneous street shots require, IMHO, very quick recognition+reaction, and for this type of photography, the film ones still rule. I would be curious to see if Matt Stuart has gone from using his MP to the M10. Jacob Aue Sobol, who featured prominently in the original Monochrom promotion is still using film. Best regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted April 22, 2017 Share #598 Posted April 22, 2017 One second startup/wakeup time is still acceptable to me but more is not definitely. My M240 cannot go below 1.7 sec (2 seconds on average) which is too slow for me. Modern cameras should do much better IMHO. YMMV. I did not know that the M7 was that slow BTW. My M6J is almost instantaneous and so are my M3 and M4-2 of course. Edit: My M8.2 does significantly better than my M240 (one sec.). I mean stopwatch at hand with any SD or SDHC card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 22, 2017 Share #599 Posted April 22, 2017 I have the MP (film camera), so, I don't know how the M7 behaves. I thought it was 'always on'.... As for the disciplined workflow, that works if you have a predictable scene before your eyes. Spontaneous street shots require, IMHO, very quick recognition+reaction, and for this type of photography, the film ones still rule. I would be curious to see if Matt Stuart has gone from using his MP to the M10. Jacob Aue Sobol, who featured prominently in the original Monochrom promotion is still using film. Best regards A disciplined workflow is always paramount, IMO, regardless of camera. I am very familiar with spontaneous street shooting and that always demand any camera to be turned on and awake. It is the (photographer's) lapses in between that bring us undone, not the camera. Footnote: The M7 does have an on/off switch, as does the M6. Both film cameras. Therefore the photographer must be alert to potential shooting moments and ensure the camera is ready and turned on. Hence my reference to discipline. Footnote 2: The M6 can be left 'on' if you choose to not use the in camera meter. Then it is purely a mechanical camera. The only reasons for turning any camera off is save battery life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert blu Posted April 22, 2017 Share #600 Posted April 22, 2017 Each one has a peculiar shooting routine, this is normal. Differences make the world interesting! Maybe my many decades of film shooting but I do not really get they long stet up or waking up time...I find difficult to understand it! I walked with my M7 switched off, when approaching an area of possible interest simply with it on set exposure and eventually zone focus...Than it's only to bring the camera up to the eye... I use the M10 in similar way...switch on when there is a potential interesting scenario, set exposure or aperture if working in aperture priority, zone focus in car there is no time to focus...done. What I like in the M10 is that I can use it in the same way as the M7... robert PS: of course I understand others can have different way to use the camera but when you choose an M film or digital is an M... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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