SL 24-90 Stuck at 24

[349A]

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Now look what you've done! Don't worry, they will forget the problem was resolved easily and repeat "the stuck lens failures with missing loctite and slapped together blah blah" for years to come.

Glad the problem wasn't a problem in the end. It probably got whacked while set at 24mm.

[dgktkr]

...

Glad the problem wasn't a problem in the end. It probably got whacked while set at 24mm.

 

 

Or perhaps an unfortunate interplay of tolerances where an internal cam had high friction in its slot. If that was the case, it's possible that normal use could "run it in" and the problem will never reappear.

 

dgktkr

Edited April 2, 2016 by dgktkr

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[ramarren]

Good common sense fix suggestion by Leica support. Glad it worked out!   

 

All the unnecessary Leica bile ... senseless ranting.   Such it is. 

[LocalHero1953]

Or it might happen again on many other lenses.

Or it might be a sign of poor design.

Or it might be a piece of crud that got in there during assembly.

Or it could be user error.

Or it could be damage while in use.

It could be all of these things or none of them.

Only two things can be said with certainty:

1. It shouldn't happen.

2. A state-of-the-art QA/QC system would want it back to see what went wrong and which of these causes it really was.

 

Look, I don't get uptight about these things, and I have not had the bad experiences to make me blow my top. I buy Leica stuff with my eyes open, having seen the faults in digital Leica bodies and new lenses since I returned to the brand in mid-M9. I'm willing to pay the premium for high performance and a unique user interface from a company with low production runs. But I don't kid myself that I'm buying into a state-of-the-art QA/QC system - the evidence is against it, both of actual reported faults, and of Leica's customer relation processes (a one-way information flow: send an item for repair, and you will not be told when it will be fixed, nor will you be told what has been fixed).

 

I agree that Leica has been playing catch-up in digital photography for a while, and the design & quality of their products has (IMHO) steadily improved. It would be nice to think that, now that they are apparently making money again, they would plough some of it back into targeting a zero-fault production system that includes pro-active investigation of reported faults (as in this case) and a less anal customer relation system.

 

The standard Crosby definition of Quality is: conformance to requirements. For the SL, this should include meeting its own requirements for use with flash, which it does not. I can live with this for the moment while they fix it - others can not. Until Leica has its own fault reporting system, I have no problem with others reporting faults here, and continuing to report them, forcefully, when they are not fixed (the M's GPS). The Dr Panglosses of the forum may not enjoy it, but I have no doubt that Leica staff are aware of what is written here.

 

Meanwhile, I am grateful that all the damage and faults with my equipment have been rare and have (aside from a miscalibrated rangefinder) been caused by me.

Now to put down a deposit on the 90-280SL, another low production run, high cost product.

[AlanJW]

Professional Canon cameras and lenses have a very high MTBF.

Considering that Canon sells orders of magnitudes more cameras than Leica, it is normal to see hundreds of complaints, especially about low-cost non-pro stuff.

 

My opinion is that Leica is rushing to catch-up with technologies they have shunned for too many years.

And doing so, they are neglecting the core product, the only thing that made Leica what it is now: the M system.

This SL nonsense will backfire soon, and meanwhile, all I hear about the future of the M system gives me the shivers.

You have presented a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario for Leica.   If they did not adapt to the new technologies, even if "catching up", it is not clear they could survive.   The M system is likely not enough to keep the company going, so those of us who like M cameras (that includes me) should be happy that other products are being developed.  That includes the SL.  My original thought is it was nonsense.   Then I got to see one and then I bought one and now use it.   It is a very capable camera, in some ways more capable than an M. Not nonsense at all.  Does the SL have some problems?  Yes.  Does the M have some problems?  Yes. None of this means the M has lost its place as the core product (or lost its place in my heart either).   A new M is coming in the Fall they say, and M lenses are being revised and new ones produced.  Why do you think the M is being "neglected" and why do you have shivers?  Standing still in the camera marketplace in 2016 is not an option.  There are probably some who thought that the M8 signified the beginning of the end for Leica.  Why try this newfangled digital stuff when you were so good at film rangefinder cameras?   The fact is that there will likely be a continuing market for a rangefinder Leica but that market will be part of larger camera market in which Leica participates.  Be thankful for that because while you say Leica is not paying enough attention to the M, nobody else is paying any attention at all.   

[lct]

We won't have to shake "professional" lenses to get them unstuck anymore hopefully . My complaints about Leica QC began in the eighties with the M4-2 and i've never stopped ranting since then more or less. After a "coffee stain" issue on a M8.2 and a one year wait to get proper auto iso features on the M240, i've decided to postpone my camera orders until serious testing is done by independant reviewers, if any, or good colleagues here preferably. Problem is i give in to the Fuji or Sony sirens in the meantime and when i see little gems like my A7s mod i wonder why to buy into Leica systems for anything else than lenses and rangefinders now...

Edited April 2, 2016 by lct

[ramarren]

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... The Dr Panglosses of the forum may not enjoy it ...

 

 

Thanks for labeling everyone. 

 

I believe in articulating problems and getting reports of bugs and problems to a manufacturer. Period.

 

Ranting and acting like a spoiled child are stupid behaviors, IMO; they net nothing back from a person (and manufacturers' employ people, you know?) receiving such abuse other than disdain. That's why it's advantageous to state the problems, submit the reports, and then let it go without appending emotional, derisive rants about all the things that have bugged you in the past eon. 

 

All this over the fact that a zoom's control ring became a little sticky and needed a jiggle to free it up... 

[349A]

The assumptions seem to be that they are venting to Leica. Maybe. Possibly. Doubtful. If anything, they're just destroying Leica's reputation over what is partly/mostly exaggeration and partly good feedback. Best idea? Send the feedback directly to Leica rather than making huge stinks on a forum where it will remain on the internet forever. Don't assume Leica is reading this forum. The posters here are probably less than .1% of the actual client base. A microscopic and probably highly destructive percentage since people believe what is written. Anyone researching a potential purchase will find these types of comments "high percentage of Leica bodies shipped were out of adjustment." Based on what statistics. BS, made up nonsense. Incredible, too bad people aren't required to prove their sources or be sued for libel.

 

Self loathing Leica lovers should be a new sub forum.

 

As the owner of probably 30-40 Leica items, I have had only one problem which was rectified by Leica NJ. I didn't come to the forum to whine and moan, what would that accomplish anyway.

[LocalHero1953]

Send the feedback directly to Leica rather than making huge stinks on a forum where it will remain on the internet forever. 

Please post the link to Leica's fault reporting system.

[pop]

While we frown upon Leica bashing (as some members could confirm), we also frown upon bashing of members who experienced entire runs of embarrassing problems with their Leica goods. Embarrassing for Leica, that is.

 

We also know that people who are with Leica read the forum, even if there's no apparent effect on Leica's output. 

 

Thirdly, some of the members accused of Leica bashing are in very close (and frequent) contact with Leica. At least it's what they say, and I have no reason to disbelieve them.

 

So, we're very glad that there are people who are entirely happy with their purchases and have been so during a long time. I happen to be one of them.

 

We're also very glad that there are members who let us know that there are problems with some of the products, and the forum has been part of the solution in more than one case.

 

We're not happy with prejudice and hidden agendas.

[349A]

Leica Camera AG

 

Am Leitz-Park 5

35578 Wetzlar

Germany

 

Phone: +49 (0)6441 2080 - 0

Fax: +49 (0)6441 2080 - 333

 

E-Mail: info@leica-camera.com

Website: http://www.leica-camera.com

[LocalHero1953]

Not quite what I was asking for.

[349A]

"While we frown upon Leica bashing (as some members could confirm), we also frown upon bashing of members who experienced entire runs of embarrassing problems with their Leica goods. Embarrassing for Leica, that is."

 

I hope my posts have not been misunderstood, I have no issues with people asking for help or reporting issues. What does irk me, is some members seem to love to whine. Made up stats, constantly repeating the same story of some ancient defect (that was dealt with) etc. it seems Leica can't win with some people. I have yet to hear of a serious issue that was not dealt with by Leica properly. 

 

"We also know that people who are with Leica read the forum, even if there's no apparent effect on Leica's output."

 

Are you sure of this or maybe they have read the forum after someone pointed it out to them. I don't know the answer, I do know its not fair to assume they are aware of everything written here.

 

"Thirdly, some of the members accused of Leica bashing are in very close (and frequent) contact with Leica. At least it's what they say, and I have no reason to disbelieve them."

 

Maybe. 

 

"So, we're very glad that there are people who are entirely happy with their purchases and have been so during a long time. I happen to be one of them."

 

I will make an assumption now, I bet the majority of Leica owners are in this boat.

 

"We're also very glad that there are members who let us know that there are problems with some of the products, and the forum has been part of the solution in more than one case."

 

agreed 100%

 

"We're not happy with prejudice and hidden agendas."

 

agreed 100%

[349A]

Not quite what I was asking for.

You expect Leica to have a link for product issues? I've never seen that from any company. Maybe thats the norm, I'm just unaware of it. Does Porsche have this? Sony? Nikon? Maybe they do, I never came across this myself.

 

Isn't it easy enough to contact them and explain that you have an issue and you also see other forum members with the same issue? It seems much more constructive than the usual pile on. Maybe its just me. 

 

I do think some owners would be much happier selling off their gear. Why would anyone spend so much money on products and a company they hate. I wouldn't. 

[pop]

What does irk me, is some members seem to love to whine. Made up stats, constantly repeating the same story of some ancient defect (that was dealt with) etc. it seems Leica can't win with some people. I have yet to hear of a serious issue that was not dealt with by Leica properly.

 

There are several issues that remain unresolved to this day. Some of them are "shortcomings" of the construction or the software, some seem to be issues of individual copies, or, perhaps, runs of copies. There have been issues which Leica solved after they have been discussed here in the forum at length. I believe that sequence implies causality, but I could be mistaken in this point. I won't say that all of the unresolved issues are serious, but some could be really annoying, even to simple minded people like me.

 

You  can find out about them by perusing this forum.

 

I have personally met some of the members who express their disappointment here about some of their purchases, and when they tell us they've been in contact with Leica, I will not doubt them. I have no reason to.

 

Not all people reporting failures are whining, even when expressing anger. I accept that there are members who know perfectly well what you can expect and what not of a small scale manufacturing outfit like Leica.

 

Therefore, we all love to hear from your experience when all works well, of course. We also certainly invite everyone to report here what's not so well. But we do like to keep it cool and friendly. 

[CheshireCat]

You have presented a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario for Leica.   If they did not adapt to the new technologies, even if "catching up", it is not clear they could survive.      

 

No, I am just recommending they stay in their niche. It is too late to compete with commercial giants now. They are only going to get hurt. Read further.

 

The M system is likely not enough to keep the company going, so those of us who like M cameras (that includes me) should be happy that other products are being developed.  That includes the SL.  

 

The SL of now is a commercial nonsense. There is no real competing advantage you get for the much higher price. It's mostly me-too stuff.

 

Instead, the M system is unique. It bridges the past and the present, and hopefully the future -- if and only if Leica is smart enough to add an embedded high definition EVF to complement the RF, and lots more MP. It is as simple as that. Ane obviously add some good marketing to strenghten this Leica continuum message.

None of this means the M has lost its place as the core product (or lost its place in my heart either).   A new M is coming in the Fall they say, and M lenses are being revised and new ones produced.   

 

Indeed. The M is emotional. I agree. And emotions are what sells.

The rumors about the new M is what gives me the shivers. I hear weird things like no display and other masochistic castrations. The M262 is a disappointing premonition.

 

But I hope to be wrong. I really hope new M cameras will give us more, and hope new lenses will be created by Karbe and the team. Lenses are to cameras like software is to computers.

The fact is that there will likely be a continuing market for a rangefinder Leica but that market will be part of larger camera market in which Leica participates.  Be thankful for that because while you say Leica is not paying enough attention to the M, nobody else is paying any attention at all.   

 

Lots of people don't care about analog or digital: they just want a flexible platform that works; they want to love their camera and lenses. The market is made of passionate people, not collectors. Passionate people just want an intuitive camera to express their photography art ! They love the background, they study old photographers, they want to be part of the same history and extend it into the future.

Where is this camera ?

 

Check how much used M Leica lenes from decades ago still go for.

For the right people, that should be an eye-opener: passionate people are simply searching for the best way to love photography, so give them the most complete camera there is: a new M with top-notch RF and EVF, and the best lenses ever.

All passionate people will buy it. And passion is what makes life worth it.

Edited April 3, 2016 by CheshireCat

[CheshireCat]

All this over the fact that a zoom's control ring became a little sticky and needed a jiggle to free it up... 

 

 

I think more than one control ring had this "little sticky" (meaning non-functional) issue, otherwise they would not have replied with the solution right away.

 

And by the way, I thought you were done with this thread.

[Jeff S]

 Don't assume Leica is reading this forum. 

You know what they say about people who assume......so here are some facts...  http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/244082-leica-upgrade-program-for-m9-corrosion-of-sensor/   Says Mr. Daniels:   "We have been closely following debates on the CCD sensor issue in forums and blogs and take the opinions and criticism we read very seriously."

 

Ok, let's try another example...  http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/186718-serviceability-m8-m82-displays/   

 

If you use the search box, you'll read about the frustrations from many forum members over these and other problems, and over the lack of official response.   Leica eventually does the right thing....but leading up to these official responses were inconsistent case-by-case reports....some happy campers and some not so happy ones, some getting free and quick attention, some not.  There is little question in my mind that group pressure had a positive effect in each instance, resulting in more clearly communicated and generally fair policies.

 

We should embrace the healthy dialogue between customers and the organization.....it's something that doesn't typically happen with huge enterprises.

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

Please post the link to Leica's fault reporting system.

The telephone?

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[ramarren]

I report problems to Leica regularly, just like I've done with Nikon, Olympus, Panasonic, Sony, et al, over the years. I don't whine about how they've disappointed me, or how awful they are, or how I know they're "playing catch-up", or any of that emotional nonsense. So far they've fixed every problem I've reported. As well as a couple of others I didn't notice, and a few that I don't care about as well. Leica has done a better job addressing the issues that have bugged me than anyone else, Olympus has come second in that score. Sony has been the worst. 

 

Leica is not a club, it's a business. If you think you can do better than they do, gather some investors, go into business, and do it.