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Stefan Daniel

Serviceability M8 & M8.2 displays

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For the M9 as for all our products, we are taking measures that we are able to service the camera for a period of at least ten years after production will stop. In the case that (especially electronic-) parts are no longer available, we will offer an upgrade program. As you know, we have quite a history of being able to service our products for a period much longer than that!

 

Dear Mr. Daniel, Thank you for this message. Many of us here were wondering what exactly Leica means when it uses terms like "lifetime" in promoting its current products like the M9 or MM, and previous ones like the M8. We would be very grateful for your clarification. With best wishes, Al Moreno

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Mr Daniel, you may wish to ensure that all of your service centres know about your upgrade offer, look what happened to this guy...

 

I had this happen to me recently. I sent it in to Leica, and they told me they couldn't repair, as they didn't or weren't going to be getting the parts. They offered to sell me an M9 for $3900.00. I initially said no to the offer, then changed my mind about a week later. At that point Leica said the offer was no longer good and sent my body back to me. I am annoyed about that, but I did have my chance and passed. Anyway, I got the body back, it does work, I just can't see any menus or look at an image.

 

Cannot Leica find any supplier with some old stock of screens? Why not offer the 'upgrade' to all M8 users, and use cameras with say broken shutters or other damage as donor cameras to repair LCD's for those that want to keep a working M8?

 

There are always solutions if you want to find them.

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Mr Daniel, you may wish to ensure that all of your service centres know about your upgrade offer, look what happened to this guy....

 

In fairness to Leica, that story comes from before this offer was made, so the dealer could not possibly have been aware of it. The original offer would have appeared to have been "goodwill".

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In fairness to Leica, that story comes from before this offer was made, so the dealer could not possibly have been aware of it. The original offer would have appeared to have been "goodwill".

 

He says he sent it to Leica, not to a dealer.

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I'm grateful for the clarification, but still somewhat unsettled. As a current M8 owner not currently affected by the LCD coffee stain issue, is there any way for me to know whether I could be affected within a year or two?

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He says he sent it to Leica, not to a dealer.

 

 

Even so, the upgrade policy wasn't in place then. Leica made him a goodwill offer that he turned down.

 

That goodwill offer is now crystalising into a wider policy.

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I'm grateful for the clarification, but still somewhat unsettled. As a current M8 owner not currently affected by the LCD coffee stain issue, is there any way for me to know whether I could be affected within a year or two?

 

No.

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As I said in the other thread - this seems aimed almost entirely at reassuring M9 owners that they won't be treated the same way as M8 owners.

 

Nothing about those who don't want or can't afford an M9 'upgrade'; nothing about negative impact on M8 used prices; nothing about why accident damaged screens are charged an extra amount (this is penalizing the owner for Leica's mistake); nothing about why this issue crept quietly out of the woodwork without some range of officially backed alternatives for M8 owners in general.

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So the bottom line, it would appear, is that should one have an M8/M8.2 which develops the LCD problem one won't be able to have it serviced.

 

The only option would be the upgrade-to-an-M9-for-a-premium option.

 

Though...even if the serial numbers don't give clues as to whether a camera has an LCD of the infected lot, would it not be possible to give an approximate year of production of such cameras? That, I think, would help a lot.

 

Still, nice of him to respond.

 

Cheers

Philip

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I was afraid of that. So short of actually taking apart the LCD assembly, no M8 owner knows for certain whether they have a defective LCD from that particular production run.

 

I could live with a cosmetic blemish provided that I have a functional, reliable camera. However, given that the LCD happens to be one of the more likelier parts to be damaged physically, Leica's now official inability in providing replacement LCDs is a real disappointment for us M8 owners.

 

Is an engineering solution involving current off-the-shelf components really financially infeasible?

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As I said in the other thread - this seems aimed almost entirely at reassuring M9 owners that they won't be treated the same way as M8 owners.

Like it or not, that's correct in Stefan Daniel perspective, and, too, thinking of M8 users who could be "encouraged-forced" to accept an exchange for M9

 

Nothing about those who don't want or can't afford an M9 'upgrade';

This is purely a money issue, not strange he didn't point directly to it : if a M8 user is disposed to pay the repair of his M8' screen, his mood towards the forced alternative of a M9 exchange is mainly a matter of money involved in the proposed (negotiable ?)transaction. Indeed, there could be some collateral reasons for a M8 user doesn't LIKE to exchange for M9 (example : lenses' set "built" on the crop sensor) : but I think is not a problem of many people.

 

nothing about negative impact on M8 used prices;

Again, like it or not, this can't be a primary thought for Leica.

 

nothing about why accident damaged screens are charged an extra amount (this is penalizing the owner for Leica's mistake); nothing about why this issue crept quietly out of the woodwork without some range of officially backed alternatives for M8 owners in general.

Correct, expecially for the 1st point... I hope something further clarification will be done: I think it would have been difficult , for him and today, to enter in deeper details.

 

Stefan Daniel, rather a high level manager, has spoken just a pair of days after this shocking bubble emerged, thanks to the Net and the Forum : that's appreciable, and let's hope that the end has yet to come.

.

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The coffee-stain screens are an irrelevance to me. As far as I'm concerned, from now on I'm gonna have to think twice every time I take the M8 out. From now on, any drop or collision with a tabletop has the potential to cost not $800 but $3000 or $4000. Furthermore, there'll be an extra amount to pay, as Leica apparently feels the need to penalize 'accidental' damage - even though the owners are not to blame for the extra cost.

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To me it boils down to one point: Digital Leica cameras are as vulnerable as any other camera, the promoted 'life-long' label looks like a marketing-only phrase.

 

Customers who paid for the extra in quality are being left alone when a supplier runs out of stock. No creative workaround to serve the affected clients in sight. An upgrade option is unaffordable for many.

 

Today it's the M8, tomorrow it may be another model.

 

This might be a sad signal for any Leica customer. And for the image of the company.

 

Please rethink the strategy, dear Leica!

Edited by Indina

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So now I know that according to Leica a lifetime (my lifetime) is ten years:)

 

I would like my digital-M to last for as long as a mechanical film camera (or fine mechanical watch for that matter).

 

As with my lenses, to be able to use it for decades to come.

 

To pass it on to my kids should they want it (in the same way that my godfather recently gave me his 1940's IIIc & Summitar, still working, and with it's life's history).

 

For it to maintain some sort of value (serviceable, sentimental, finaincial) in the very long term.

 

This is obviously not realistic in the digital/electronic age. although we all have electronic items that have performed perfectly for decades. I still use my HP 32-SII calculator every day. It was produced in 1992!).

 

For me, ten years of 'guaranteed' support (or 'reasonable' upgrade programme should parts not be available within that time) is quite reasonable and reassuring. However, the terms of that upgrade programme are the issue. The devil is always in the detail and I am concerned for owners of unserviceable cameras, due to lack of parts, who cannot afford to upgrade. How will Leica deal with them? Perhaps in this situation exchange for a reconditioned M8 or even M9 is not a bad alternative. Let's face it, if I take my faulty iPhone back for repairs I pay $180 and am given a reconditioned phone (checked and working to factory specs. as a new phone).

 

Reputation is everything, and Leica's reputation is based on quality, durability, and longevity. This matter has seriously threatened Leica's reputation as evidenced by rapid formal response by Leica's CEO (btw, very pleased to see this:)) to a thread in this Forum that went red hot with 450 posts and over 1200 hits in 72 hours. Again, this shows the powerful influence of social media is a two way street between corporations and consumers.

Edited by MarkP

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The coffee-stain screens are an irrelevance to me. As far as I'm concerned, from now on I'm gonna have to think twice every time I take the M8 out. From now on, any drop or collision with a tabletop has the potential to cost not $800 but $3000 or $4000. Furthermore, there'll be an extra amount to pay, as Leica apparently feels the need to penalize 'accidental' damage - even though the owners are not to blame for the extra cost.

 

 

This is not a Leica issue, this is why you should have insurance!

 

 

If I drop my camera and lens and there is serious damage, even if the camera isn't written off, the repairs may rapidly rise into the thousands (of any currency you choose). This happened to me and my insurance company was calling to settle the account even before I had the final repair cost. If my camera or lens is damaged beyond repair they pay agreed value, the cost of a new camera or lens

Edited by MarkP

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An upgrade option is unaffordable for many.

 

If we boil it down, that's the main point.

It's like getting the offer to upgrade to a Mercedes when your Volkswagen is broken.

If you just can't pay for it? Well, tough luck.

 

That's not the way it should be, seriously

 

Yes, I know, there are many who say if you don't have the money, you can't afford it.

OK, but isn't that a bit too elitist? We are talking about a short-term usage of a premium product.

 

What about those guys who have saved for a while to get an M8 and now do not see any chance to replace a broken one - after perhaps only 4 years?

 

That's lame. Probably, a low interest financing plan offered by Leica would be a solution:

 

"OK, you can get an M9 as a replacement for €3000,-

You can't pay for it now? No problem, we offer you a 3-year-financing at €90/month."

 

Everybody would be satisfied, I presume.

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This is not a Leica issue, this is why you should have insurance!

 

 

If I drop my camera and lens and there is serious damage, even if the camera isn't written off, the repairs may rapidly rise into the thousands (of any currency you choose). This happened to me and my insurance company was calling to settle the account even before I had the final repair cost. If my camera or lens is damaged beyond repair they pay agreed value, the cost of a new camera or lens

 

I have insurance - but there's no way insurance will give you $4000 for a cracked LCD screen on a digital camera. If yours would - please let me know their details. I'll sign up.

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My policy is "new for old"

 

If an old product is no longer available, a new equivalent product is offered instead. If the LCD failure renders a camera unusable, then a new replacement has to be offered.

 

Lots of insurance policies work this way.

 

When we moved into our current house, we had a blue bathroom suite, from the 1980s. The bath was accidentally damaged and the insurance company were insisting on replacing the blue bath with a new blue bath (so as to avoid paying for a new WC and wash basin). Blue baths are no longer made (thank goodness), but they were insisting.

 

I found that the manufacturer WOULD make a new blue bath, but only in a minimum order of 1,000, as they would need to buy that much blue perspex. I told the insurance company that it would cost them about £300,000 for the new bath and to advise me what they wanted me to do with the 999 spares.

 

They paid for a whole new white bathroom suite.

Edited by andybarton

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My policy is "new for old"

 

If an old product is no longer available, a new equivalent product is offered instead. If the LCD failure renders a camera unusable, then a new replacement has to be offered.

 

Lots of insurance policies work this way.

 

Insurance doesn't work that way in Sweden - but in any case, I'd be very interested to see how even English companies would respond to a £3000 bill for a cracked LCD.

This is a side issue anyway.

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