FILCA A, B and C, Where's D

[Anbaric]

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If someone had a cheap replica of the ABLON made in metal I suspect they'd make a killing on ebay, considering the prices the originals go for these days. If it's profitable to sell something as obscure as a replica SNHOO filter adapter, which only fits one lens, there's definitely a market for an ABLON copy. The price of the originals might drop too. The SNHOO is quite rare, but when one turns up it can go for less than the much more common SOOGZ adapter (someone should copy that too).

[wlaidlaw]

My son has written a print file for the ANZOO film template and printed me one for my 250FF. The last genuine ANZOO went for over £3000. To make you all jealous, I paid £10 each for my ABLON and ABCOO at the Brighton camera fair about 12-14 years ago. Both still in their original Morocco cases. If anyone needs the print file, I will get a copy from my son. 
 

Wilson

Edited February 3, 2021 by wlaidlaw

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[levegh]

I have no idea when the Sommor cassette loaders were made but almost all of them were made to close Leica cassettes. The Sommors are very common appearing all the time on eBay. That suggest that, at the time of their manufacture, the FILCAS and/or IXMOOs were in fairly common use.

Stuart

 

[TomB_tx]

The Watson loaders I've used since 1968 also have a knob to close the Leica cassette.

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, TomB_tx said:

The Watson loaders I've used since 1968 also have a knob to close the Leica cassette.

I have been looking for a Watson 70mm loader but they are rare and correspondingly expensive when they do appear. 

Wilson

[sandro]

On 9/6/2019 at 2:39 PM, Pyrogallol said:

I have just got a type A cassette. I saw three cassettes for sale on the bay and thought the picture showed one of them with a v shaped top to the spring. It is an A. The spool only has a plain slit to hold the film, not the later grip and not the bar to tuck the film end under illustrated in the Vith book. The other two are normal FILCA cassettes, though one does not have any name engraving on the bottom, does that mean it is also an early one?

the picture shows the A cassette on the first edition copy of the Vith book I bought recently. Being the first edition the A cassette is the only version illustrated in the book. It is a German edition, was the first edition ever issued in English?

 

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About the Leica Handbuch by Frits Vith: according to Claus Walter in Vidom 106 (2013) the first English edition appeared in the same year 1930 as the original German edition.

Lex

[Pyrogallol]

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On 9/6/2019 at 1:39 PM, Pyrogallol said:

I have just got a type A cassette. I saw three cassettes for sale on the bay and thought the picture showed one of them with a v shaped top to the spring. It is an A. The spool only has a plain slit to hold the film, not the later grip and not the bar to tuck the film end under illustrated in the Vith book. The other two are normal FILCA cassettes, though one does not have any name engraving on the bottom, does that mean it is also an early one?

the picture shows the A cassette on the first edition copy of the Vith book I bought recently. Being the first edition the A cassette is the only version illustrated in the book. It is a German edition, was the first edition ever issued in English?

 

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I now have a second type A cassette.

Comparing the two there are small differences.

The centre spool in the new one has the original bar to slip the end of the film under, as shown in the Vith book. The core of the spool is hollow with just the crossbar. The first one is solid or blocked at the other end.

The centre shell of the new one has a Z on it, presumably meaning zu or closed, which the other does not. I guess that the shell with the Z might be later than the one without, so does that mean that the spool with the bar belongs in the shell of my other cassette without the Z  and the slightly later spool with the slot belongs in the shell with the Z ?

Also the top shapes of the bend in the spring that holds the cassette together are slightly different.

All this reminds me of the other topic I read earlier today describing the meaning of “anorak”.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Pyrogallol

[Ambro51]

I had loaded a FILCA with 100 BW and left it “out”, not in a lightproof Can for storage, several frames had this type mark on them, is this as I assume a light leak of the cassette?  Other frames on the strip are clean of light leaks.

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[willeica]

On 2/9/2021 at 1:45 PM, Pyrogallol said:

I now have a second type A cassette.

Comparing the two there are small differences.

The centre spool in the new one has the original bar to slip the end of the film under, as shown in the Vith book. The core of the spool is hollow with just the crossbar. The first one is solid or blocked at the other end.

The centre shell of the new one has a Z on it, presumably meaning zu or closed, which the other does not. I guess that the shell with the Z might be later than the one without, so does that mean that the spool with the bar belongs in the shell of my other cassette without the Z  and the slightly later spool with the slot belongs in the shell with the Z ?

Also the top shapes of the bend in the spring that holds the cassette together are slightly different.

All this reminds me of the other topic I read earlier today describing the meaning of “anorak”.

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I have a lot of variations in my FILCAs. You are not an 'anorak' but it must be slowing dawning on you that Leica in the early days was very much a 'craft company'. Such variations abound from the early days not only in FILCAs, but also in cases and other accessories (eg rangefinders) and even from time to time in cameras and lenses. Jim Lager says that it was often down to who was on, or in charge of, a production line on any particular day.

William

[wlaidlaw]

42 minutes ago, willeica said:

I have a lot of variations in my FILCAs. You are not an 'anorak' but it must be slowing dawning on you that Leica in the early days was very much a 'craft company'. Such variations abound from the early days not only in FILCAs, but also in cases and other accessories (eg rangefinders) and even from time to time in cameras and lenses. Jim Lager says that it was often down to who was on, or in charge of, a production line on any particular day.

William

I commented at the time, that I thought Mr. Magoo (where's that danged wabbit) must have been in charge of the Quality Control department on the day my 0.95 Noctilux was released. A five second look through a digital M was enough to tell me that the RF and optical focus were miles apart. I asked for a replacement but I would have had to wait until the next batch was made, which was going to be around 4 months. The ever efficient Andrea Frankl, promised me that she would make 100% sure that the lens was perfect before it was returned to me, which is what happened. 

Wilson

[willeica]

12 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

I commented at the time, that I thought Mr. Magoo (where's that danged wabbit) must have been in charge of the Quality Control department on the day my 0.95 Noctilux was released. A five second look through a digital M was enough to tell me that the RF and optical focus were miles apart. I asked for a replacement but I would have had to wait until the next batch was made, which was going to be around 4 months. The ever efficient Andrea Frankl, promised me that she would make 100% sure that the lens was perfect before it was returned to me, which is what happened. 

Wilson

That was a long time after the 'craft period', Wilson. The strange thing is that in the 'craft period' cameras and lenses were generally better put together, but they were simpler and there was less for 'Mr Magoo', or should that be 'Herr Magoo', to make mistakes with.

William

[wlaidlaw]

For anyone looking for an ABCOO knife Reg at Croydon Photo Centre has a cased one for a very reasonable £20 at the moment. 

Wilson

[levegh]

You have started me looking at cassettes more closely. All my IXMOOs and half my FILCAs have Ernst Leitz Wetzlar and Germany on the base, while the rest of the FILCAs have no writing. All have the Z on them. Nicca reloadable cassettes are identical to the FILCAs and work just as well in a Leica. They have the word Japan on the base. Amusingly, they also have the Z on them though it cannot have signified anything to Japanese or American speakers. Somewhat off-topic, but interesting that only older speakers in UK talk about pulling a door 'to'. In colloquial speech, do Germans still use 'zu' in the same way that I still use 'to'? If they don't, that Z will puzzle future museum curators.

Stuart

[levegh]

Sorry! I should have added that one of you out there told me some time ago that the Nicca cassettes were made in Germany despite Japan being impressed on the bottom. Is there evidence for that? If so, perhaps whoever made them for Leitz made them for Nicca.

Stuart

[wlaidlaw]

Leotax also made some very nice FILCA copies. I use Leotax wind on spools in a number of my Barnack cameras, as they have a spring loaded spigot at the top, which makes removing the spool so much easier and finger nail friendly. Push down and twist anti-clockwise and the knurled spigot pops up to enable spool removal. Push down and twist clockwise and it is ready to install the bottom cover. My Reid and Sigrist Model 3 has a particularly tight spindle and before installing a Leotax spool, getting the rewind spool out was very difficult. Canon wind-on spools have something similar but not spring loaded. 

Wilson

 

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[willeica]

At the UK Leica Society AGM last weekend I came across this 'Leitz-Agfa -Kasette fur Agfa-Leica film', which I purchased

 

 

 

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The cassette came in a nice aluminium container with 'Agfa' on the front and 'I.G. Farbenindustrie A.G. Agfa Berlin SO 36. 'on the back. Jim Lager and Lars Netopil were with me when I bought the item. Both said that they had seen the cassette before , but not the container.

Has anyone seen one of these containers before? 

William 

 

 

[wlaidlaw]

William, 

do you think that could have  been for the "unique" 1930's Agfachrome film? I read some time ago, the chapter in my book on the history and development of colour photography on the on the way that the 1930's version of Agfachrome worked but I think something may have been lost in the translation from German, as after reading it, I am still no wiser. 

Wilson

[Pyrogallol]

Very nice to see this thread revived and to read it all again. Thanks.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, wlaidlaw said:

William, 

do you think that could have  been for the "unique" 1930's Agfachrome film? I read some time ago, the chapter in my book on the history and development of colour photography on the on the way that the 1930's version of Agfachrome worked but I think something may have been lost in the translation from German, as after reading it, I am still no wiser. 

Wilson

Thanks Wilson. I think you are right and there was a whole lot of other palaver such as f2.9 and coloured filters etc. Then a man called Dr August Nagel sold his company to Kodak and created the non-reusable cassette to go with the Retina I.  However, some people continued to use reusable cassettes for many years afterwards and, indeed, some still do. I feel that Dr Nagel belongs up there with Barnack and others in creating 35mm as the dominant film in photography for many years. I put this to Jim Lager and Lars Netopil in Buxton and they were inclined to agree. 

It was great to meet you face to face at last at the Leica Society AGM.

William 

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[willeica]

 I found this inside the front of one of the Delivery Register books at the Leica Archives in Wetzlar last weekend. It relates to the then (in 1931) new FILCA Labryinth Cassette, which I believe is the FILCA C cassette which was only around for a very short time. This also refers to the 'D Kassette' which we discussed here at length here.  A knowledge of German handwriting plus some technical knowledge would help in interpreting this. I have put below what I think it says

 

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I have almost no German, but it seems that the cassette was probably around from March 1931 and ,definitely, from 1 May 1931. However it seems that from 27th June 1931 it was replaced by the 'D Kassette'. We know that the FILCA C is very rare which may be explained by the short time for which it was used, but when we looked before it was difficult to find any FILCA Ds. What is more common is the Leitz-Agfa cassette, such as the one that I showed above on 18th April. There is also a reference in the register book to something happening after SN 60000 which takes us back to the beginning of 1931.

This is all guesswork on my part and I don't mind if someone tells me I am wrong. Any assistance from members who can read German would be greatly appreciated.

This find was unexpected and I was not in the archives for very long. I had asked to see the books from 1931/32 to check the transition for I Model C with Elmar, LEOMU, to the II Model D with Elmar, LYKUP.  In relation to the latter, I found the record for one of my cameras which was issued on 25 April 1932 to a Dublin dealer via London. It seems that by that time the II Model D had completely replaced the I Model C. I might post that elsewhere if I can find a suitable thread.

Just imagine what any of us here might find if we could spend just a week in the archives to do a targeted search.  I'm working on that. 

William