Leica S Lens AF issue

[349A]

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I wouldn't invest in the S system (and I seriously considered it) until these far too many examples become rare....with even more public disclosure from Leica on the issue(s) and the fix(es).  A key reason for the system investment IMO is the quality and reliability of the lenses.  

 

But this relates to camera body issues as well, with similar forum reports of multiple failures.  

 

Very disappointing.....especially for the price.

 

Jeff

 

Anyone that reads this forum in a regular basis knows. Your loss, really. The most amazing camera I ever owned by a pretty wide margin. And if by chance a motor problem develops, Leica is behind me with a pretty quick turn around. So far, knock on wood, I have no problems. I would guess the majority of owners don't either. The ones that have problems will come to the forum to talk about it, thats human nature. If they all failed or failed as often as it may seem, I think Leica would be out of business by now. If we count the number of failures reported here, its probably in the dozens. How many S systems are out there?

 

I do hope they have a higher spec replacement AF motor/gear they are installing these days. And it would be nice to know that, I agree.

 

Cameras are now computers. They are no longer totally hand made mechanical devices that can be overbuilt and last nearly forever. Its just the way it is. There are pluses and minuses to this. Of course a M6 or M3 will outlast any new Leica. Not Leica's fault, if they stuck with their handmade film cameras, they would be a one man operation if they existed at all. The good news is they stand behind everything 100%

 

Out of curiousty- why haven't you moved on to a Pentax or some other brand? 

[jibanes]

349A is right.

 

While I perfectly understand people make mistakes, such as the AF motor choice (assuming this is the problem itself), companies should be held liable for transparency and accountability, and I will vote with my money. Therefore, I refuse to give $100k+ to a company that fails to communicate such issues clearly with their customers, yet, it's not a matter of volume, rather it's a matter of principle and good business ethics.

 

It is noteworthly that if Leica didn't take precautionary actions, it might illustrate they do not know the extend of the issue themselves; if they were to even admit this, it would restore my confidence in Leica, given that they take corrective actions to prevent this in the future.

 

I'd love to hear a Leica representative on this issue.

 

349A: Pentax looks good, I will give Leica 3 months to polish their communication skills around this problem before I make a call.

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[Jeff S]

 

Out of curiousty- why haven't you moved on to a Pentax or some other brand? 

 

I've used about 9 brands (and sometimes multiple cameras within each) over the last 40+ years, thanks very much, including film Leicas (M and R) going back over 30 years ago.  I still use an M240 (with M8.2 back-up).  I've always done my own printing and framing....so the camera is but one consideration in a much larger workflow that includes myriad variables.

 

I've now sold all of my film gear and am still considering my digital options for work involving larger landscape prints, and other things.   For now I've ruled out the S, but still considering the SL, and leaning toward a Canon 5DSR.  By comparison, the S is far more expensive, with far fewer dedicated Leica lens options that would be ideal for me, in addition to the QC issues.  I've used the film Pentax 645, but never bonded with its form factor, and their new digitally optimized and weather sealed lens line is limited.

 

I'm well aware of forum chatter, but always make purchase decisions based on my own testing, not based on comments from anonymous users.  But I'm generally not an early adopter and prefer to let the dust settle before I try for myself.  In the case of the S, not only has the dust not settled, but the reports have gotten worse.  There are professionals here that have been staunch supporters, but who have had multiple camera and S lens failures (Mark....'fotografz'...has had 4 of 6 lenses fail, not all AF motor issues....and 2 of 3 cameras, and he's not alone). 

 

For me a camera is a tool....so if not this one, there are others.  Leica has many pluses, but not all of their products are alike.  Case by case.  YMMV.

 

Jeff

[349A]

"For now I've ruled out the S.

 

I'm well aware of forum chatter, but always make purchase decisions based on my own testing, not based on comments from anonymous users.  But I'm generally not an early adopter and prefer to let the dust settle before I try for myself.  In the case of the S, not only has the dust not settled, but the reports have gotten worse.  There are professionals here that have been staunch supporters, but who have had multiple camera and S lens failures (Mark....'fotografz'...has had 4 of 6 lenses fail, not all AF motor issues....and 2 of 3 cameras, and he's not alone). 

 

Jeff"

 

I totally get it, Jeff. My point is that you've rulled out the S. So why do you post constantly with highly negative remarks? Its not for you, you have no faith in it. I understand your reasoning and would not argue it. I'm just curious why you post negatively so often. What do you hope to gain? 

 

I can say I almost didn't buy one because of your posts. I'm glad, like you, I don't listen to forum chatter too much. Its the most amazing camera I have ever used. The lenses are amazing. I have the 24, 70, 100, 120 and the zoom will be here tomorrow. Its operated flawlessly so far. As I'm sure it has for most S customers. Do I want to see Leica improve the AF part, absolutely. Clearly its a weakness they did not catch and they are standing behind it 100% I'm quite sure they are disturbed by the problems and it must be incredibly costly to them, just like the sensor issues in the M9 and M9M.

 

If I send a lens in, which is not a big deal for me since I am not a pro and don't earn my living from my camera, I would hope it stays fixed. I totally get the frustrations reported, especially from pros, I just don't get a non owner that has ruled the system out chimming in with negative views over and over again in dozens of threads. With all due respect, I am not trying to get into an argument. As a new user to the S, I have been reading through many old posts and Jeff S pops up in nearly all of them with negative remarks. Hence my questioning why you haven't simply moved on.

 

Canon is probably fantastic and has a huge lens catalog. For me, I already have too many lenses. I can't think of anything else I would need as an amateur. 

 

I also have the SL (fantastic) a M9 and M9M. I've owned a M8 and M6. All have been flawless, I have yet to have a sensor issue and again, Leica will cover me if I do... So big deal. It happens to the best of them.

[Guest VVJ]

I just joined the AF failure ranks and read through this entire thread... 

 

I sent my lens to NJ 3 weeks ago, not feedback yet (despite two reminders)...

 

As a comparison, in the past I had two Hasselblad HC lenses repaired, both were repaired (in the US) and back in my possession within the week!  I also had one digital back from Hasselblad repaired, back within two weeks (it took a trip to Denmark).

 

It seriously makes me reconsider the Leica S.  I like Leica (I have 4 systems) but the many issues with S lenses are IMHO clearly not acceptable given the cost of the lenses...

Edited March 30, 2016 by JorisV

[Jeff S]

 

 

I totally get it, Jeff. My point is that you've rulled out the S. So why do you post constantly with highly negative remarks? Its not for you, you have no faith in it. I understand your reasoning and would not argue it. I'm just curious why you post negatively so often. What do you hope to gain? 

 

 

I think you have selective and exaggerated memory.  I've made many posts praising the S (particularly its fantastic VF), and routinely suggest that others try the camera to make their own decision rather than relying on the forum.....like here, for instance in the thread "To S or not to S"....  http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/254426-to-s-or-not-to-s/?p=2951738   That's but one example.

 

There are a few other threads that are specifically concerned with S user issues.....so naturally that's where folks post problems.  It wasn't until I saw reports from loyal S users having multiple issues (once again...lens issues other than AF, and camera failures as well), that I made a few comments.   In the thread titled "33% Failure...", I made one short comment.  In the thread on "S006 Focus Errors", I made no comments.  In the thread on tilt shift lenses, I made a one sentence comment (since the discussion was harping endlessly about need for higher megapixels), that I thought the discussion about QC was more important than MP.  In this thread, I made one comment.....until you wanted to debate.  In the SL forum, I was asked about whether I considered the S instead of the SL, and I briefly mentioned the limited lens line (for my needs), QC issues and cost as concerning factors.

 

In several places, I did quote Erwin Puts as saying that Leica users have become beta testers.  I thought that was worth noting since he's mentioned constantly on the forum and his comment was uncharacteristically harsh considering his Leica ties (his comment has since been deleted from his site).  I know Leica reps read the forum, so I think it's important that they hear from customers, both the good and the bad, and I've made my share of positive and helpful comments over the years (with 154 pages of thanks/likes totaling in the thousands and well as many private PMs and discussions).  [As an aside, you might be too new here to know that Leica publicly responded to some serious camera issues (e.g., LCD failures, and then sensor corrosion with M8/M9's) only after users complained endlessly on the forums.]

 

So, all in all, I think my comments regarding the S system have been balanced (and never about anyone else's purchase), and not all that many.  99+% of my comments are in other sub-forums.

 

I'm glad you enjoy your camera.  I've enjoyed my Leica cameras for decades.  The forums are a place to share experiences and opinions, to vent, to ask questions, to entertain, and more, but never (for me) dictating someone else's buying decision.....that would be silly IMO. 

 

BTW, you're free to post dozens of times how much you love your camera.  That's part of the entertainment.

 

Jeff

Edited March 30, 2016 by Jeff S

[ht613]

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Bought an 180mm CS BRAND NEW from my local Leica Store, took it home, mount it on camera, and found out AF motor failed. Not even working for a sec.

[Dhuff]

Leica obviously has a problem on its hands.  AF failed on my 120 CS, sent it back and it was returned in about 3 months.  Within 30 frames, the CS froze and 4 out of 5 shots were out of focus.  Back to Germany again.  Have not had the issue with any of my other 3 S lenses ... yet.

[349A]

Out of curiosity, was this 180mm fresh delivery from the factory or stock sitting on a shelf?

 

I'm visiting Wetzlar next week, I plan to ask about the AF fix and if its been implemented in new production. Or if they have a AF fix. I'm unsure what they can or can't tell me.

 

So far I have no failures....

[Jon Warwick]

I'm visiting Wetzlar next week, I plan to ask about the AF fix and if its been implemented in new production. Or if they have a AF fix. I'm unsure what they can or can't tell me.

..

Firstly, it would be enormously useful if Leica could respond to such a question to install confidence in potential and existing owners.

 

Secondly, am I right to conclude from these discussions, for the vast majority of you that have had the AF fail, that the S lens will typically still function manually? I've seen answers suggesting either could occur, but am trying to gauge what is more likely? ....... I could live with the AF failing (I'm an amateur, so repair time is less important) but ONLY if it could likely still be focused manually ......

Edited April 30, 2016 by Jon Warwick

[349A]

I believe it all depends on how catastrophic the failure is. My understanding is that its a small geared wheel that breaks in the AF motor. Should it break in a way that jams the works, manual becomes impossible. The fix from afar seems rather simple... Change to a sturdier material. Delrin possibly or a bit heavier and more expensive would be brass. If these motors are "off the shelf," they may not have too many choices. Just guesswork, I suppose Leica knows...

 

Lets see if they will tell me anything... I'll report back if they do.

[Guest VVJ]

I just received my lens back from repair in Germany.

 

It was repaired under goodwill (no costs) and the repair took 2 months which I believe is in line with the experiences of a lot of other people on this forum.

Edited May 10, 2016 by JorisV

[leicapages]

I just received my lens back from repair in Germany.

 

It was repaired under goodwill (no costs) and the repair took 2 months which I believe is in line with the experiences of a lot of other people on this forum.

 

Two months? I guess you are joking? Two weeks should be more like it!

[John McMaster]

Two months seems to be the length of time for most things....

 

john

[mwilliamsphotography]

It took just shy of three months to get my CS70 back (failed in CS mode). No communication from Leica regarding timing, and they returned it to my Northern address despite a letter asking them to contact me for return address because I had no idea when it would be done, or which location I'd be at when it was done. I had to have UPS reroute the package after they tried to deliver the lens with signature required twice to the wrong address. Once I finally got it, the lens had no paperwork included as to what was done … zero communication once I sent it in.

 

I think Leica knows how to deal with service because I've had good experiences. It just seems they are inconsistent at best.

 

Now my CS180 is on it's way to Germany for AF failure.

 

Good thing I love the results from this camera : -) 

[leicapages]

To add to this experience, I should add that my camera was repaired within 4 working days. Including shipment and weekends, that meant 10 days before I had it back in my hand. Fully documented, both after repair and before shipment, and papers with the actual shipment. Not bad.

 

 

It took just shy of three months to get my CS70 back (failed in CS mode). No communication from Leica regarding timing, and they returned it to my Northern address despite a letter asking them to contact me for return address because I had no idea when it would be done, or which location I'd be at when it was done. I had to have UPS reroute the package after they tried to deliver the lens with signature required twice to the wrong address. Once I finally got it, the lens had no paperwork included as to what was done … zero communication once I sent it in.

 

Edited May 29, 2016 by leicapages

[jibanes]

I'm starting to think that Leica is neglecting S2 customers at the benefit of a more profitable SL marketshare.

[bab]

After reading all the posts in this thread I find it hard to believe that;

No dealer has given an answer or reason for the unusual amount of AF Break-Downs!

That Leica has not responded with comments regarding AF issues!

That three months could be acceptable with anyone for repair on a new purchase and that a dealer would not call his rep and make a deal for shorter time on the repair, a new replacement lens, a loaner lens and or an explanation!

[Guest VVJ]

To add to this experience, I should add that my camera was repaired within 4 working days. Including shipment and weekends, that meant 10 days before I had it back in my hand. Fully documented, both after repair and before shipment, and papers with the actual shipment. Not bad.

 

 

Pascal,

 

Just to be clear, was this also an AF failure which is essentially what this thread is about?  

 

Although I am very grateful for having the lens repaired for free, for most people I get the feeling that this gets lost in the 2-3 months wait time and, in the case of the US, the rather non-existing communication skills of the people in New Jersey.

 

Thanks, Joris.

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[Guest VVJ]

I'm starting to think that Leica is neglecting S2 customers at the benefit of a more profitable SL marketshare.

 

I am not sure about that but it is clear that the Leica SL "is" the future of Leica...

 

The Leica S is an excellent camera but after the initial success of the S2 I don't have the feeling that Leica has been able to expand its user base significantly despite reducing the price from $29K to $22K to $16K...

 

Its user base remains very small which is a concern to a lot of people...

 

I own both and I have been thinking about moving entirely to the SL once more lenses become available...