M8 v M7 for B&W images?

[stunsworth]

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I'm coming late to this, but all I would add to the often heated debate that preceeds this post is that I (that's me, no one else) prefer using my M8 to my M6. Perhaps if I had a wet darkroom I'd feel differently, but like the vast majority of people who post here, I don't have one.

 

Since I bought the M8 I've not put more than a handful of films through my M6. I love not having to develop and scan the films as I used to have to do with film.

 

Almost everything I photograph ends up as black and white, and I like the look of the converted M8 photographs. Personally I use the Alienskin Exposure plug in. I've had a splurge of uploading images to Flickr over the last few days, you can see them here...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/39877124@N05/

 

Most are digital - from M8, Fuji X-Pro 1, Canon 5D - but some are from film originals.

 

As I said earlier, I think the M8 is an excellent camera for black and white images, though I realise it's not for everyone.

[wilfredo]

I've had all these: M2, M6, M7, MP. Then came the M8, and film became history. Now shooting with the Monochrom. For the price of a used M8, you get lots of bang for the buck!

 

On a similar note, the film vs. digital argument is still alive in some circles, and it has become a very small circle. I suggest you go to photo galleries and museums and see for yourself if there is anything truly special about film vs. digital? Forget the endless technical chatter, and nostalgic attachment to film on these forums, your eyes won't lie to you!

Edited September 8, 2014 by wilfredo

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[erl]

 

On a similar note, the film vs. digital argument is still alive in some circles, and it has become a very small circle. I suggest you go to photo galleries and museums and see for yourself if there is anything truly special about film vs. digital? Forget the endless technical chatter, and nostalgic attachment to film on these forums, your eyes won't lie to you!

Wilfredo, I am sure your observation is correct, but I wonder how relevant some of it is to the individual punter. In my case, I am enjoying the ergonomic process of film use. The idea of selecting which film, which filter (for B&W), which developer and for how long, etc.

 

By the time I have a print in front of me I can say, "I did that". By that I mean the level of intelligent input from me is far higher than when when I use for example, my M8 or M9. So much of digital capture can be 'undone' at the stroke of a key and then 're-done' to a greater satisfaction. I am not belittling digital because I use advantageously in many situations. What I am saying is about personal (mine) satisfaction with creative input by the photographer. I know many will agree with this, just as many will be glad to avoid it. Both are correct.

 

I do ado admire your work with the MM by the way and am sure it would be just as good with any other camera, but the point is, you enjoy the MM. I wish I could aspire to one but financially I am beyond it these days. I have had my time. Maybe that is part of the reason I am giving myself back to my film cameras.

[wilfredo]

Erl:

 

I appreciate what film means to you. I remember the days when I had a whole bedroom converted to a darkroom. I would spend endless hours printing. It's a memory I hold dear but not something that for practical reasons I would ever pursue again. I realize not everyone is willing to spend big money on an MM, even if they could, and for me it was a sacrifice to buy this camera. It was an exorbitant expense, and the only return for me is the gratification of photography. I don't make any money from photography.

 

My reaction to threads like this one is more about the almost religious "fundamentalist" attitude some people assume when it comes to film. You seem to be well grounded in your choice, and given the expense of a Leica MM, I can understand your hesitancy. The M8, I believe is the next best thing.

 

Thank you for your kind comments about my photos, I respect your opinion. I'm still learning, and will be forever.

 

On a closing note, I don't shoot with the MM because it might resemble film. I'm more than satisfied with the capabilities of its CCD sensor, and I don't see the need for a "film like" image. I think the MM and M8 images stand on their own two feet. I don't feel the same about CMOS sensors, when it comes to B&W photography. The M240 for example, just doesn't cut it for me, although I've seen some good B&W images from it, but not consistently. At the end of the day, it's all about personal choices.

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

Cheers!

 

P.S. Your book: "12 Months With a Leica 111f" is fantastic. You are a master of your craft, and given the level of your expertise, you don't really need an MM. Me, that's another story...

Edited September 10, 2014 by wilfredo

[Jeff S]

The M240 for example, just doesn't cut it for me, although I've seen some good B&W images from it, but not consistently. At the end of the day, it's all about personal choices.

 

It is indeed about personal choices. I was as enamored with my M8.2 b/w results as you were with your M8. There's no question, however, that my b/w print portfolio from the past year using the M240 equals or exceeds the print quality I was able to attain over the prior 4 years with the M8.2…consistently. Of course, all variables are not equal, as my print results have been affected by other improvements along the way at each step in the workflow.

 

I can say, too, that despite 4 darkrooms and use of many film cameras and formats over several earlier decades….including use of the M6 and M7….I'm able to print much better now than ever. Part of that's me….part of that's the tools and technology. The joy, however, is the same since I've always been responsible for every step along the way, including matting, framing and display. Some things never change.

 

Jeff

[sblitz]

Not exactly sure why the film digital debate so often swerves to having no time to develop/print/scan. I never did my own developing (no room when I was young, no time when my kids were young). I enjoy my M9 for the flexibility and speed and yes the images as well. But I also very much enjoy film (M4 and M6) and living in NYC there are any number of top labs with 24 hr service who will develop and scan and return 3x5 prints (guess how many people love looking at the those prints, guess how much money is made at concerts by guys with machines that make instant prints of your instagram shots). When i look at the Portra scanned in (I use Capture One 7), the digital images kind of fall flat.Sure, with work, I can get to a place where the Portra scanned image needs no work. And with a 20mb TIFF file there is plenty of latitude to alter the picture. Different horses for courses and all that. Both have value, both have their place, but I do not consider the developing/printing issue a relevant one, for me at least.

[erl]

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Steve, if I may observe that your particular location must play an influential role in your preferences wrt developing and scanning. As you state, NYC has a choice of good labs that will do that for you. Regrettably (for some) that is not a realistic option for many of us. I have lost count of the labs that have closed in my region. I only know of one that is left that I might trust. It is a considerable distance away.

 

For me, and some others, it is also the 'journey' rather than the 'destination' that is important. ie. doing my own developing and scanning gives me control (I hate delegating, anything) and more important it allows me the satisfaction of being the responsible craftsman of the result. Also, there is the immediacy of doing it ones self.

 

As you rightly said, horses for course. We have each chosen our mount.

[pico]

This thread is merely a re-cast version of Film vs Digital.

Y'all should just beg off, quit.

.

[NB23]

Why quit? Each and every day reality hits me: Digital suqx. Every day I realize it.

 

Today's anecdote: I had my M9 all day with me. I took one street shot. One. Deleted it. Felt stupid about it. Thought of keeping it and realized it was going to stay in my computer, somewhere, and never be seen again. Would take 15 clicks to get to that particular folder. Wanted to vomit just thinking about it. Didn't shoot another "FILE".

 

"FILE". How pathetic can it be. It's a FILE!

 

If it was my MP, I'd have finished a roll. I'd have printed at least one 20x24 FB from that roll. Signed. Then Jealously stored with all my Jealously kept FB prints.

 

What I'm describing above is a reality that grows by the day. It's so obvious.

[erl]

Why quit? Each and every day reality hits me: Digital suqx. Every day I realize it.

 

Today's anecdote: I had my M9 all day with me. I took one street shot. One. Deleted it. Felt stupid about it. Thought of keeping it and realized it was going to stay in my computer, somewhere, and never be seen again. Would take 15 clicks to get to that particular folder. Wanted to vomit just thinking about it. Didn't shoot another "FILE".

 

"FILE". How pathetic can it be. It's a FILE!

 

If it was my MP, I'd have finished a roll. I'd have printed at least one 20x24 FB from that roll. Signed. Then Jealously stored with all my Jealously kept FB prints.

.

What I'm describing above is a reality that grows by the day. It's so obvious.

I think you must have 'gear' anxiety, based on your description. What's the difference between a 'file' and a 'film'? They are simply a means of storing the thing you should value, the 'image'. Capturing the image is no more than a process. It starts in the brain and is put into action via a camera to be be stored in either the film or the file. They are just tools!

 

If you only took one street image the other day, that can only be a reflection on you, not the camera. The M9 is every bit a superb tool as is the MP. If you 'could' have taken a whole roll on the MP to make your chosen FB prints, you should have taken the same images on the M9.

 

FB prints are not the only worthwhile media on which to print, but if it is your preference, then stick with it. However it is worth asking yourself why you lock out other media, (my words, not yours).

 

As for storing on your computer. What a convenient method (with some obvious limitations). I have approximately 20,000 film stored in my archive. I pride myself I can find most images within 10 minutes (given the reference number), but it involved deciding in which archive room the particular neg is stored, often climbing a ladder to reach the uppermost storage box, than shuffling through 100's and 1000's of neg bags. Mostly I find what is required.

 

With my digital archive, I search on the file number and up it pop's, mostly.

 

Both systems have disad's and ad's. You just need to choose. Both are good alternatives.

[NB23]

Difference between a file and film? According to me, the difference is like cybersex vs. Real sex.

Hard Cash in a pocket vs. Credit cash.

[erl]

Somewhat mixed metaphors, but whatever.

You still seem obsessed with the method rather than the outcome.

That too is OK, as long as you are happy with it.

I guess I am only trying to point out that as long as the outcome is the point of the exercise, then how you get there doesn't matter too much.

 

OTOH, if you prefer train travel to aeroplanes, both of which usually get you there, then use the train.

[Jeff S]

According to me, the difference is like cybersex vs. Real sex.

 

Both 'partners' (film/digital) can produce the baby….the print. Not virtual reality.

 

You just happen not to like one of the two partners.

 

No big deal….just like every film/digital discussion.

 

Jeff

[NB23]

Both 'partners' (film/digital) can produce the baby….the print. Not virtual reality.

 

You just happen not to like one of the two partners.

 

No big deal….just like every film/digital discussion.

 

Jeff

 

No.

Film B&W film doesn't just "happen" to be a personal preference. It is widely accepted and known as a superior form versus digital B&W. People that prefer digital B&W simply accept subquality imagery.

 

Let's not forget that on the internet, every joe has a say. Too many active "photographers" and faux-connoisseurs that sound like old pros in their blogs (I could mame names), are new comers in the wirld of photography and have never even touched a roll of film, and yet they scream out loud how digital beats it and so on.

 

I've seen many, many "serious" photographers see my prints in person. Their faces change. Suddenly their world falls apart. Their illusion of themselves knowing it all explodes in their face. It's always funny.

 

BW film is clearly the best BW medium. All the rest is pure denial. Pure denial.

[Jeff S]

Yep, the internet is full of fools…and trolls.

 

Jeff

[NB23]

Yep, the internet is full of fools…and trolls.

 

Ah yes, the "troll" riposte. Forgot about that one.

[Jeff S]

People that prefer digital B&W simply accept subquality imagery.

 

There are those who don't necessarily prefer one or the other; rather they prefer an excellent quality print of a great image, regardless.

 

After collecting prints for 30+ years, including from some of the best in history, I think I have a pretty good idea of a wonderful silver print. And a beautiful digital print, too. And I've seen plenty of crap using both.

 

Troll was only one option.

 

Jeff

Edited September 11, 2014 by Jeff S

[bruniroquai]

There are those who don't necessarily prefer one or the other; rather they prefer an excellent quality print of a great image, regardless.

 

After collecting prints for 30+ years, including from some of the best in history, I think I have a pretty good idea of a wonderful silver print. And a beautiful digital print, too. And I've seen plenty of crap using both.

 

Troll was only one option.

 

Jeff

 

 

Have You seen a beautiful digital print, someway better than a beautiful wet print? Regarding tones, depth...

[Jeff S]

Beautiful is beautiful. And a great image is a great image….I don't compare them either.

 

Jeff

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[erl]

Preference can't be argued with. Just accepted.

Blinkered vision can be worse than blindness.

Blatant declarations of 'right' and 'wrong' just aren't convincing.