M8 v M7 for B&W images?

[Jeff S]

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Like Jaap, I prefer images that are true to their medium, rather than feeble attempts to imitate something else.

 

Ok, I'll take the bait.

 

The problem with a statement like this, or any statement that compares the different media, is that there isn't any one 'true' representation. People have been 'manipulating' print results in all media since their inception. There are myriad steps in any workflow, film or digital.

 

If intent is the root of your issue, then I understand the frustration. But when I look at a print, I don't really care about the photographer's intent (documentary photos aside); I care about the result. And there is no right or wrong result.

 

Of course only now do people make these after-the-fact judgments about digital versus film. If we would have had digital to start, we probably would now be hearing how large format film is just another way to mimic digital. But even that would be wrong, since large format doesn't always have one 'look'.

 

One constant is that each of us has our own preferences….but those aren't always defined by the medium used.

 

Jeff

[CalArts 99]

 

But when I look at a print, I don't really care about the photographer's intent (documentary photos aside); I care about the result. And there is no right or wrong result.

 

fwiw, all photographs are 'documentary' (they are recorded documents of the real; which also differentiates photography as an expressive medium.) And every time a photograph is made, there is an intent of some sort by the author. If that intent isn't read by the viewer in the way the author intended, then the result can be questionable. It's why photographs either fail or succeed....

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[Jeff S]

If that intent isn't read by the viewer in the way the author intended, then the result can be questionable. It's why photographs either fail or succeed....

 

I disagree. Photographs often fail or succeed in the mind of the viewer, for many reasons the photographer may not have intended. It's one reason why captions can be limiting. But that's a much longer discussion, which I won't further engage here.

 

Jeff

[CalArts 99]

Photographs often fail or succeed in the mind of the viewer, for many reasons the photographer may not have intended.

 

Exactly....

[Jeff S]

No, you said 'questionable'. I said it could succeed….for different reasons.

 

Jeff

[CalArts 99]

The reason why newspapers use very specific captioning.

 

Anyway, I come from another planet.

[Jeff S]

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The reason why newspapers use very specific captioning.

 

Exactly.

 

What I meant by documentary photography.

 

Some people may, for instance, just take pretty or abstract pics…say, of the sky. So, maybe that's documenting the sky…but not in the sense of your newspaper example.

 

Choose a different term if it better suits.

 

Jeff

[CalArts 99]

Some people may, for instance, just take pretty or abstract pics…say, of the sky. So, maybe that's documenting the sky…but not in the sense of your newspaper example.

 

Yes, I'd say it's documenting the sky but just without specific captions directing the viewer.

 

Photography is a burdensome medium due to it's multiplicity of utility and it's relationship to recording the 'real.' It can get complex. btw, there's a lot of literature about the author and viewer relationship out there if you're really interested in the subject. But as you already correctly said, this is not the place to discuss it.... it's way beyond the context of a camera brand forum. And there is no 'answer' ... it's just part of the dialectic of this particular medium.

 

Anyway, these sorts of forums tend to end up not about discussion for the sake of understanding, but instead about 'who's right and who's wrong.'

[pico]

[...snip good stuff...] But as you already correctly said, this is not the place to discuss it.... it's way beyond the context of a camera brand forum. [...]

 

Anyway, these sorts of forums tend to end up not about discussion for the sake of understanding, but instead about 'who's right and who's wrong.'

 

 

Indeed, arguing to win is a losing position. I disagree that this forum is not the place for positing points-of-view. We are fortunate to have very many bright people here.

[Jeff S]

Photography is a burdensome medium due to it's multiplicity of utility and it's relationship to recording the 'real.' It can get complex. btw, there's a lot of literature about the author and viewer relationship out there if you're really interested in the subject.

 

Thanks, I've been studying it (and other art), and collecting photos and books, for about 40 years now.

 

Just because we have different views doesn't make our education and understanding different….although I've often agreed with your viewpoints here.

 

Jeff

[pico]

There are two paradigms here:'prints in person and digital simulations. Choose one.

[erl]

There are two paradigms here:'prints in person and digital simulations. Choose one.

Pico, we know you have one specific preference which is totally OK, but some of us actually have a very real use for both. Personally I use digital for anything that demands cost effectiveness and the output can be extremely acceptable. The variable factor tends to be me rather than the medium. OTOH I love using film for a multiplicity of reasons. Both media are so different from each other, I rarely fall into the trap of comparing them. I prefer to choose which I use based on needs, the pleasure and or ease of use and others.

 

Both give me (different) pleasures. I would hate to be forced to choose one or the other.

Edit: I am speaking about the total experience from shutter release to hanging the print. I contract nothing out to service providers.

[Rick in CO]

"I've recently been thinking about acquiring the M8 for B&W photography after pondering which film camera to go with for a long while.

On the Web my eye has been tricked more than once in thinking some of the images taken with the M8 were taken with a film camera.

I'm wondering can anyone offer any advice on best practice to produce stunning B&W?"

 

Wow have you stirred up a Hornets Nest!

 

First Comment: So users think that the M8 delivers better converted B&W imaging than the M9, likely due to its thinner absorbtion filter (okay, its also a different sensor, but probably not that much?) Any proof of that in prints that is not overcome by Photoshop?

 

Second comment: What is your imaging stream? I use an M9, work with 16-bit image, convert to B&W in Photoshop, adjusting filtration to my preference, then convert to grayscale and size for contact printing using an inkjet transparency reversed negative on either silver paper or platinum/palladium. You can adjust essentially everything - or use one of the commercial B&W conversion software packages. Best of all, you don't need an enlarger (I still have my D5500 as its not worth anything on the used market). So my point is: what is your final image? Computer screen or inkjet/silver/alternative print? If you don't make prints, the whole discussion is moot.

[erl]

In addition to all that has been said above, I will venture the opinion that far and away the single most significant factor influencing your images, regardless of final presentation medium, is you!

 

Anything else, relatively speaking, is minute. Hopefully this knowledge will take some of the pain out of the decision and you can be comfortable with any reasonable choice. Most important is the decision to do something. From that point on you will be singing.

[CalArts 99]

Thanks, I've been studying it (and other art), and collecting photos and books, for about 40 years now.

 

Just because we have different views doesn't make our education and understanding different….although I've often agreed with your viewpoints here.

 

Jeff

 

fwiw, WJT Mitchell's text, Picture Theory, is a worthwhile tome. I've used it a few times in seminars and it usually gets students into a lively discussion.

W. J. T. Mitchell | Department of English Language and Literature

Just thought I'd pass it on in case you're not familiar with it (it deals with a lot of what we were attempting to discuss here, and from both sides of the aisle.)

 

I do think that one's education and understanding can clearly be quite different despite the depth, length, quality of that education. It's what makes our world views different. And that's a good thing, as it can also promote positive dialogue.

[dlbr]

Dear Leica M8 users..

....

I'm wondering can anyone offer any advice on best practice to produce stunning B&W?

Many thanks..Stevie

 

IMHO, there is the only practice how to produce stunning image, weather it be B&W or color, and that is to press the button in the right moment. I mean that button on the top plate of your camera, not the mouse or anything. If you get that and do not blow off the highlights, you are good to go. Leica M8 is a perfect gear to help you, but keep in mind it does not do the job for you, neither does any amount of PP. Store the DNG, there is plenty of information to work with, and the rest is just a routine. In other words, shoot first, ask questions later :-)

[erl]

Ah, yes, but the same can be said of the M7 or even the M6 etc as well.

 

So, It still comes back to 'you'.

[Jeff S]

...weather it be B&W or color...

 

Or even during a bad spell of weather.

 

Jeff

[pico]

Or even during a bad spell of weather.

 

Jeff

 

Danny Santos has a lot of fun in bad weather.

His page here.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Jeff S]

Danny Santos has a lot of fun in bad weather.

His page here.

 

You did understand my play on words…in response to poster's spelling error?

 

Jeff