Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario

[Ecaton]

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Hmmm....

 

Big rumor: Panasonic revives the L1 and makes a hell of a MFT camera out of it! | Mirrorless Rumors

 

...I don't believe in coincidence.

 

Apart from the confusion between the unloved L1 and the much loved LC1 this may give us a clue...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Would make sense, with excellent 25mm and 45mm Pana/Leica mft lenses already existing and more to follow.

[flyalf]

Based on recent releases, whatever Leica produces, it will be too little, too late, too expensive, and Leica will not be able to produce enough to meet demand.

 

You mean " it will be too little, too late, and really to cheap, since Leica will not be able to produce enough to meet demand"

[arminw]

Lets hope this is not a luny rip-off

 

I geth a rush all over my body every time I see one of those things . Urghhhh

[UliWer]

Hmmm....

 

Big rumor: Panasonic revives the L1 and makes a hell of a MFT camera out of it! | Mirrorless Rumors

 

...I don't believe in coincidence.

 

Apart from the confusion between the unloved L1 and the much loved LC1 this may give us a clue...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Yes...

 

...but with an MFT-Sensor Leica wouldn't place it above the X2 in their new hierarchy.

[paulsydaus]

 

I hope you're right Pico. It's gorgeous, and look at those sturdy strap lugs.

I'd buy 3 of these, one for each lens in use.

Pete

 

Lol lug redundancy!? Nice!

Or a new way to attach the hand grip ala M9 Titanium? Why did they not bring this concept to the new M without needing a new baseplate?

[geoffreyg]

My guess:

 

Full frame sensor

No LCD

High def EVF

M lens mount

No viewfinder

Wifi

$4000

....

 

I hope Leica goes down this route. If they do, I'm in.

 

We have hoped for this for years - that Leica hit the sweet spot. Instead, they seem to have missed with each of their "more budget" models, offering tweaked versions of something else. If they would do this outline, we'd all jump for joy. but having been let down several times before....

[Michael Irmer]

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Leica will need to make an additional M-mount camera. They build excellent glasses and have a digital body to use it. Forget the ME, which is a single-seller. Other manufacturers (Canon, Nikon, ..) can offer several of products depending on application and financial situation. The only problem is that rangefinders are so expensive. A glass once you buy. The digital cameras achieve a significantly lower age than the analog.

Without an M rangefinder will be much smaller and be more compact with only APS-H.

 

Leica makes its money in the camera division with glasses. You only need a marketable selection of cameras for that.

[Ledfut]

Yes...

 

...but with an MFT-Sensor Leica wouldn't place it above the X2 in their new hierarchy.

 

 

I think this is where its gets interesting. Leica going with something smaller at the same time Panasonic might be going bigger is too coincidental not to be connected. Considering their past histories together.

 

Ledfut

[glenerrolrd]

If Leica follows the strategy of the M and S models ..it must appeal to the existing loyal base . Personally I don t need or want a handicapped alternative to the M but some would certainly prefer an EVF/AF alternative .

 

Why would I buy the new Mini ..in addition ..to my M system? ...Smaller ? Thats pretty much it . Maybe as a lower cost back up ..but really better than an M9 ?

 

Why would I buy the new Mini instead of my M system (maybe I have a S system) or I can t focus a RF anymore . Or the new M is too expensive . EVF /AF. and Price .

 

If its price they need to be around $4000 ..otherwise why wouldn t you find a used M8/M9 for your legacy lenses .

 

How can the new MINI be unique in the market place ...like the M and S2 are . There are alternatives but they are not the same . What could the new Mini do that you can get from the Fuji or Sony alternatives?

 

Oh and you have to make it in Germany/Portugal .

 

No easy answer .

[lct]

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[Lee Martin]

My prediction is that the Mini-M will be a cross between the M and the X2

 

X2 similarities will be:

-a fixed lens, but it will be a 35M (thinking summarit 2.8 to keep the weight down; possibly a summicron) (I can't see Leica starting a new line of interchangeable lenses for this)

-autofocus

 

M similarities will be:

-24MP FF CMOS sensor

-manual rangefinder capability (like the Ms)

-also live view with focus peaking

-video

 

The size will be between the M and X2, but closer to the X2 (along the lines of Sony's RX-1)

 

It will be priced at $3999, which is about between the X2 and M

 

This might seem ambitious for a traditionally digital technology-challenged company, but the suggestion that the release date may not be for another year or two would be consistent with this.

 

-This model will target those who who desire something more compact but aren't satisfied with the capabilities of the X2 and are willing to pay for more capability.

-Leica M lens owners and lovers will need to keep using the Ms

-It will be a reasonable (and justified) premium over the RX-1

-It will retain the portion of the X2 customer base who have maxed out at $2K (or thereabouts) for a fixed-lens camera

 

Pure speculation, but this is what I would do if I were running Leica.

 

-Adam

 

You know I thought this at first as well, but the more I consider the design I believe Leica will incorporate a built in eye level EVF. It certainly is easy enough to do. I don't think it will be like the X100S, ie dual optical/electronic, but rather a straight LCD like the XE-1. Priced at $5500, same as the M-E it's replacing.

 

With the new factory up and running, they will have the capacity to produce larger volumes, and I think that they will want to produce higher numbers at smaller margins perhaps , so as to increase market share and broaden the exposure of Leica as a brand. With that in mind I think $5500 will be above that threshold and $4000 nearer the mark, as unless it's going to be significantly better than say the Sony RX1 then people won't make the leap. I'm still guessing at a Sony RX1 rival, stylish with the suggestion at least of exclusivity and a high performer. All camera manufacturers are having to produce smaller and smaller cameras as people expect " more from less" with the capabilities of their phones, which produce almost acceptable images from to all intents and purposes, them having not carry nothing. Sales of "traditional SLR's " are all well down, and when I see what my small little D Lux 4 produces, there are times when I can't be bothered to lug my Canon 5d mark 2 and L lenses.

 

If there is any suggestion at all that Apple designers have been anywhere near this release then I'm going with the RX1 competitor . Leica are aware that whatever it is, it will create a waiting list, but if they get it spot on, then it may open up an enormous market for them, that they may now and for the first time, and with the new factory, be able to supply .

[colonel]

I'm going with the RX1 competitor

 

absolutely no way Leica is going to make a direct competitor to any other company.

They will want a USP, as all their products have had at launch.

 

There is particularly no way they could do the RX1 any better then Sony (i) they don't have the vast R&D (ii) the RX1 is close to perfection for what it sets out to achieve.

 

This will either be an interchangeable lens camera or a fixed lens zoom camera

 

If it is zoom it will be based on APS-C, and thus will be unique in the market

 

If it is interchangeable lens camera it will either be 1.3 or FF. It will use the M or the R lens mount, my bet is the M mount.

It might allow AF lenses as well or it might also have the RF mechanism.

 

All of these will be unique, use Leica glass, have Leica build and jewelery like quality.

 

My personal preference is for a Leica CL follow up. A small, low feature FF camera with a CMOS sensor that can take M lenses.

[Steve Ash]

I am not ready for a guess yet. The only thing I am sure of is that the guy who got the idea of calling the none M cameras mini, micro and nano M should be tarred an feathered.

[Alberti]

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/attachments/leica-m9-forum/378032d1369336061-mini-m-m-mini.jpg

 

To me the new camera is called "M" because it will have an M-bayonet. Without FF no one would buy it as a back-up or cheap extension (also to lagging M8 users?).

But the EVIL would then be inside the box, possibly as a hybrid. With that, an LCD for live-view on the back would not be needed. Now that would make it mini too - reduced depth of the body, reduced weight. The X-100 shows it is possibilistic.

 

The new M-branding at least solves the problem of my wife asking if the X2 is the same quality as the M...

[Peter H]

I hear Leica have just tied up a collaborative marketing deal with M&M's.

 

The new camera will be the MiniMMnM.

 

You can guess what the B&W-only version will be called.

 

 

 

Surely I've got better things to do.

[Lee Martin]

absolutely no way Leica is going to make a direct competitor to any other company.

They will want a USP, as all their products have had at launch.

 

There is particularly no way they could do the RX1 any better then Sony (i) they don't have the vast R&D (ii) the RX1 is close to perfection for what it sets out to achieve.

 

This will either be an interchangeable lens camera or a fixed lens zoom camera

 

If it is zoom it will be based on APS-C, and thus will be unique in the market

 

If it is interchangeable lens camera it will either be 1.3 or FF. It will use the M or the R lens mount, my bet is the M mount.

It might allow AF lenses as well or it might also have the RF mechanism.

 

All of these will be unique, use Leica glass, have Leica build and jewelery like quality.

 

My personal preference is for a Leica CL follow up. A small, low feature FF camera with a CMOS sensor that can take M lenses.

 

 

Ideally I love the idea of the camera having a small zoom, ideally 24-85 and reasonably fast, but with Leica spec not realistic at an affordable price. When paying potential Leica prices will anything less than full frame these days be acceptable ?, when in no time I think full frame will be the "norm" . Depending on the price Leica are aiming at, the Fuji range is available with an 18-55 on an APSC sensor, obviously with full functionality along with image stabilisation etc.

To some degree Leica have been overtaken, and I don't see them leaping to the front in terms of technical advance .

 

If they are after a whole new customer base, then they will effectively be asking those new customers to have to buy into Leica M lenses and all the cost implications that entails, if it's going to be a Leica CL 2013 version. If they want to just offer a new camera to existing Leica lens owners, then great, I think that will be fine.

 

Otherwise non interchangeable zoom makes good sense as they can engineer the item to a price, for totally new customers ,but is that something that will fit with their business model, doing anything half heartedly ? I don't think so . It's fun to speculate, but I'm sticking with the Sony RX1 variant.

 

Here's a thought I've not seen offered yet a "MINI MONOCHROME" , with 35 prime , optical viewfinder full frame . The demand for the MM has been brilliant I believe, so why not, as you said that's an innovative first . Actually I think I want one of those regardless now

[captain]

My money is on a compact, lighter EVF/live view, M-mount, 1.3 or 1.5 crop sensor (same sensor as the M240) body.

I guess "Mini" does not give any indication as regards pricing.

 

Yep this is where my money is too. Most likely a 1.5 crop. maybe even using the new Fuji X Trans sensors with phase detection to allow an EVF spit image focusing for manual focus lenses. (Leica and Fuji have had a digital relationship in the past) This is the camera that was going to be the R solution so it has to have an EVF and interchangeable lenses. How would it be better than the Fuji? With a specific focus on M lenses there wont be the smearing that that the adhoc add on adapter the Fuji provides. I personally was waiting for a X-E2 with just these features. Someone mentioned before that anyone who has spent money on M lenses wont have any trouble coming up with the cash for a M9 or M, this is simply not true most Leica M lens owners I know including myself have acquired their lenses over quite a number of years, finding that bargain or taking the time to research and save for that particular M lens they have worked out best for them and most likely secondhand. I will never lay down the sort of cash Leica demands for a new M series digital especially given the depreciation and how quickly the technology goes out of date. I have stuck with film until an economical and logical digital M body came along. I almost committed to the X-E1 until I saw the X100s with its split image phase detection X Trans sensor came out then I decided to hold off. If the new Leica Mini is this camera I will consider it as long as it too isnt priced ridiculously. I love rangefinders but not in the next digital I buy, i would like to do a bit of macro and make use of the wonderful Tele-Elmar 135 f4 I have had but never been able to get the full use off with tiny framelines.

[fotografr]

My two cents worth.

 

When it comes to building Digital Cameras, the Germans have a lot to learn.

 

Unless it's made in Japan I DON'T CARE FOR IT.

 

Cheers.

 

Yes, that Japanese monochrom is just awesome!

[AlanJW]

I will chime in on my opinion on what Leica is likely to do, without straying into what I would like them to do.

 

They have placed this camera in between the X2 and M (240). To me there are only three variables to vary to place a camera there:

(1) RF

(2) Sensor size

(3) Interchangeable lenses

 

If it has all three: RF, a FF sensor and interchangeable lenses, it surely cannibalizes M (240) sales. I do not think Leica would do that. There is already the ME for that anyway. so I do not think that there is any chance of all three differentiators on the Mini. The RF is the one most likely to go. Unless leica is giving up on the X2, they already have a crop sensor fixed lens.

 

That leaves the following possibilities:

FF and interchangeable.

FF fixed

Crop sensor interchangeable

 

From a business standpoint, I would think Leica would like to open up more opportunities to sell more lenses, so I would guess this is a crop sensor interchangeable. That configuration is the least cannibalistic.

 

Since there are already crop sensor interchangeable (e.g. Sony Nex, Fuji) this one presents the biggest marketing challenge -- but Leica has shown that it thinks Red Dots can sell. The alternative is FF interchangeable which presents a

danger of siphoning off M sales but preempts Sony's predicted FF Nex, preserves the ability to sell lenses, and creates a nice backup plan for some.

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[Stealth3kpl]

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Pete

 

 

 

 

 

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