Marks on brand new M8 lensmount normal?

[sgriffee]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Bad news from Adorama:

 

----------

 

Dear Valued Customer

 

Sorry, but since the warranty card has already been filled out you will have to return to the manufacture directly, we will not be able to accept that as it clearly states on our return policy.

 

Our return or exchange policy

 

For the first 14 days of your purchase (7 days for video equipment ) you can return merchandise for a full money back refund ( excluding the shipping) or exchange.

 

Provided that the item has not been marred mishandled or tampered with by an unauthorized repair person all returns must include original undamaged packaging

 

Instructions & blank not filled in warrantee card . we do not accept returns of film paper

 

Videos tapes processing equipment once used with chemistry under water equipment

 

Once taken underwater unless they are shown to be defective by manufacture.

 

Please note all equipment & merchandise purchased from adorama comes the way it is packed by the manuf. Containing all access. packaging etc. we will accept returns only if it includes everything the way it was sold & delivered to you with all literature paperwork instructions & blank warranty card

 

if the above conditions are not met adorama has the right to refuse the return or charge a restocking fee of not less then %15

 

please place the original box in to a carton please do not place stickers or labels on original manuf. Box please ship to us pre paid for your protection please insure the package & ship it with a method that it can be traced

 

adorama is not responsible for lost or damaged packages

 

Our return address is:

Order Processing

7 Slater Drive

Elizabeth, NJ 07206.

 

 

Please include a copy of invoice and a short note stating reason for return & state if you wish to exchange the product or a refund we will process your exchange or refund ASAP.

 

if you have any other questions

 

Please contact customer service

 

by phone = 800-223-2500 or 212-741-0466

 

by fax = 212-463-7223

 

by email =

service@adorama.com

 

weekdays 9:30 TO 4:30 eastern Friday 9;30 to 1;00 p.m eastern

----------

 

My response (copied to Leica support and repair addresses):

 

----------

Hello,

 

The package containing the Leica M8 has already been picked up by the UPS man and is on its way back to you.

The warranty card is not included, but as I've already informed you via the copied email below and on detailed explanations in a letter included with the package, I only detected the damage to the camera after having sent the warranty card to Leica. I subsequently contacted Leica by email, by phone and by written letter, a copy of which is included in the return package to you, informing them of the situation and asking them to revoke my warranty card, which they have confirmed to me several times has been done.

 

Even if I did make the mistake of sending in the warranty card prior to realizing the problems with the camera, it was Adorama's fault to sell me an obviously used camera with defects in the first place, and it is now up to you to solve this situation with Leica Camera Inc.

 

I have spent almost 5000 dollars on a faulty camera, and lost a lot of time and been through much hassle in this matter already. I will not accept a "15% restocking fee" (over 700 dollars for your mistake!) and will not accept the faulty camera you sold to me sent back to me again.

 

I demand nothing less than a full refund from Adorama Camera, and am forwarding this email to Leica Camera Inc. and posting it in the Leica Camera Users forum, where this situation is being followed by many of your potential customers.

 

Simon Griffee

----------

 

Sigh.

[larry]

Simon,

 

I don't know how you paid for the camera, but if you used a credit card, you should have recourse. Best of luck.

 

Larry

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Guest sirvine]

So much for Adorama redeeming itself. I spoke too soon.

[sgriffee]

I did use a credit card and will take that recourse if necessary. What concerns me is that the UPS man Adorama sent said it would take 6–10 days for the camera to get back to Adorama, and Adorama asks for 5–10 days to process the return from the date they receive the package. So potentially 20 days before I hear anything, and in the meantime I am short of both $4795 and the M8.

 

Does anyone here know the number of someone higher up at Adorama? I feel like there are various different people replying to my emails, which makes the whole situation even more difficult and confusing.

[carstenw]

Don't you have just 30 days to refuse the credit card charge?

[jaapv]

I'm with Carsten. In your place I would simply call my credit card company and leave it to Adorama to explain themselves and pick up the pieces. 10 to 1 that you'll never hear anything about it anymore.

[Shootist]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I did use a credit card and will take that recourse if necessary.

 

 

I'm sorry to say it but I think the real problem here is you refuse to take the appropriate action at the right time.

When you first notice those marks on a supposedly NEW camera you did nothing. Then X weeks later you post a picture of it on this forum asking if this is normal. Simply that those type of marks on anything new, a car, a piece of stereo equipment or even a contruction tool, is not normal.

Now you say "I'll contact my credit card company if needed". Just when does it become needed.

 

Sorry to be so harsh but when I received my M8 I went over it with a fine tooth comb. If there was any damage I would of contacted the seller, a Leica dealer in Florida that I had never heard of or done business with before and probably won't in the future, and returned it for a full refund including the shipping for selling me a used piece of equipment as new. If I had no successs with that I would of immediately contacted my CC company that I used to purchase it and had them handle it. That would of taken me a total of 2 days TOPS. And to be honest I couldn't wait to get my hands on a M8. Still those type marks are a big tip off that something isn't right.

 

I think your only recourse now is to send it to Leica, after you get it back from Adorama, and explain all the details and hope they fix it free.

I have dealt with Adorama many times and have actually returned something to them. On that one time I returned something they handled it without problems.

[sgriffee]

Shootist: Yes, I made the mistake to not post the picture of the lensmount with obious wear to this forum when I first opened the camera and noticed the problem. This was due to my unexperience (thought that it might have something to do with the camera being hand-made/tested at the Leica factory) and excitement at receiving my first rangefinder camera.

 

The first, and real mistake however was Adorama's. They should not have re-packaged and re-sold the obviously used, faulty camera as new to me in the first place. I spent nearly 5000 dollars and have gone through a lot of trouble instead of being a satisfied customer. This is not right.

[earleygallery]

Simon,

 

A good point has been made about the credit card. I don't know the specifics of consumer law in the USA but in the UK if you pay by credit card (over £100 I think) your contract is equally with the credit company, and they are equally liable for any problems.

 

You should get onto them immediately and state that you are rejecting the goods as faulty and that you want you payment refunded. They will then have to resolve the matter with the retailer.

 

As for the warranty card thing, its a card. Leica can surely send out a new card? I don't think the retailers argument would hold in court (again in UK law it wouldn't).

 

I'm with you in the fact that the retailer should never have sold that camera to you in the first place. Hope it all works out OK.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

What i would do immediately before you even finish reading this is call your Credit Card company explain this and send these documents via e-mail to them showing them they authorized it than backed off and you want the charge revoked , plain and simple. NOW is the time to get your CC in, they will fight the battle with Adorama.

[jaapv]

In our country the sell and buy contract would be dissolved with the costs of the lawsuit for the retailer. It would not even come to an argument. I imagine consumer protection in the USA works similar. I am surprised a reputable shop like Adorama lets it come this far. In plain view of the photographic community too. It must cost them in sales.

[ho_co]

Simon--

More than anything, this is likely missed communication. Don't get upset; you're going to come out fine:

 

1) You filled in the warranty card and mailed it. That makes the camera yours. We've already gone through this.

 

2) You previously told Adorama that you had done so, but they agreed to take the camera back anyway AND THEY SENT the UPS Call Tag, indicating that they accept some liability.

 

3a) I've never heard of UPS taking that long to deliver a parcel in the US. 5-7 days max.

 

3b) The UPS driver has no way of knowing how long it will take Adorama to process the return.

 

3c) Therefore don't worry about how long it's going to take; it's out of your control and in Adorama's. You can't do anything about it so let it go.

 

4) Someone at Adorama--who cares who?--sent you the formal statement of their return requirements. You already knew all that when you bought the camera, so why they are sending that now I don't know. THAT HAS BEEN SUPERSEDED by the fact that they sent the Call Tag.

 

What I'm saying above is that we don't know yet how Adorama is going to handle it. They've sent mixed messages. Don't get upset until after they receive the camera and get in touch with you. I would say you shouldn't try to contact anyone there before they get the camera and can evaluate it.

 

5) As I noted above, Adorama is IN GENERAL accurate in saying that IN SUCH CASES the matter must be taken up with the camera importer, because the camera can no longer be sold as new if lacking its warranty card.

 

6) HOWEVER, you have contacted Leica with a request to invalidate the warranty card and issue a new one. If they do so, Adorama's complaint about your sending the warranty is obviated.

 

7) Therefore--again--wait till the camera is in their hands and they contact you. Don't call them. Don't get upset. Don't talk to them or write to them unless you are calm. If you write, put the letter aside for a day. The next morning you'll think of a couple things you didn't mention, and you'll find a couple things that are too negative, which you'll want to take out. Communication must be businesslike and unemotional. I think you're coming close to overlooking this point--perhaps rightfully so--but it must be observed.

 

8a) Don't write. But if you must, the letter must be very simple, stressing: a) I bought my first Leica from you because I felt you were reputable; I was surprised when it arrived because it didn't look new, but I didn't know what a new Leica was supposed to look like, so I registered the camera; c) it is now obvious to me that the camera had clearly been abused before you shipped it and that I was wrong to accept it as new; d) I have spoken with Leica and asked them to invalidate my registration and re-issue a warranty card if possible--but guys, you can't sell this camera as new with or without a card--just look at it; e) the camera was damaged before I received it--check your own records and have the previous purchaser pay for the repairs; f) I will dispute the credit card charges if you do not refund the billed amount or send me a new camera as replacement.

 

8b) Don't write, but have that letter ready, either in your mind or ready to mail if necessary. Have those points ready if they call you. Do not get emotional.

 

8c) Clearly, you don't want to do business with Adorama, even if that business is to accept a replacement camera; but making that offer is the only fair way to handle the matter. If you get them to send a replacement, they may make enough money to salvage some of the costs of having the camera repaired. (see 8d)

 

[8d) My opinion: I do not believe Leica will issue a replacement card; I believe someone is going to have to pay for repairs, because this kind of damage is abuse.]

 

9) If Adorama returns the camera, do not accept delivery. Don't open the package. Just tell the driver you refuse the delivery. Keep the ball in Adorama's court.

 

10) If Adorama doesn't accept the above, dispute the charges on your card.

 

But here's the bottom line, Simon:

 

11) Even if you lose the matter with Adorama (and I don't think you will), the camera is "new" because it was never previously registered, and it is under Leica's warranty to be put right. HOWEVER, the warranty may be void because of the obvious abuse of the camera. Still, you have done all you can to make both Adorama and Leica aware of the problem, so it is likely that you won't be caught in the middle. In the end a 3-way compromise among you, Adorama and Leica may be necessary. But worrying about the future doesn't do anything but spoil the present.

 

12) Whatever you do, you must quit worrying about it until Adorama responds after receipt of the camera. Track the camera online, and give them 24 hours to respond after UPS delivers the parcel. Until then, there is nothing you can do.

 

13) What you want is a functioning M8 with full warranty. That's what you ordered and what you expected Adorama to send. Keep that in mind.

 

--HC

[sgriffee]

I've now realized I did pay with a card, but it was with my debit card, as my bank would not allow me to raise the credit card limit high enough to be able to pay for the camera.

 

I will contact my bank regardless and see if there's something they can do, though I don't imagine there is at this point. I still trust Adorama will do the right thing after reading the letter and seeing the materials detailing the situation which I sent along with the return package, though it's frustrating to have to wait.

 

Also, Leica has confirmed to me that the warranty registration has been cancelled, and have been alerted to the arrival of my letter about the situation which I sent to their Marketing Manager Mr. Christian Erhardt.

 

I would much rather be out taking photographs than dealing with all this, and I'm sorry to pollute the good vibe of the forums, but its been very helpful to post here and I trust the situation will be resolved.

 

Cheers,

Simon

[sgriffee]

HC: You've summarized everything perfectly as usual. The points about remaining calm and not immediately writing and sending off angry letters, and about how worrying about the future doesn't do anything but spoil the present are especially good ones.

 

I also consent that I would be happy in the end if Adorama were to send me a replacement camera in perfect condition, but at this point I'll just wait until they receive the returned camera and contact me and see what to do from there.

 

Thank you very much for your words.

[Guest leicawanabe]

Call Liz at Leica. Tell her you do not want the lens registrerd and to send you back the card or a new one. Dealers do this all the time. A person will trade a lens in that they just sent the warranty card in for and the dealer will ask Leica not to register the lens. I have seen it done before. You can also tell this to the camera store.

[sgriffee]

Thanks for the tip—at this point I am waiting for Adorama to receive the return package with the M8 and contact me, then I'll take it from there. Off to photograph some Redwoods for a few days and forget about things for a while—have a good weekend everyone!

[jfaier]

have you contacted the Leica Rep who is the laison between the retailer and Leica US?

[steich]

Simon,

excuse me please, but I still do not understand why, though you saw the abrasion marks on your M8 immediately after unpacking it, you did not do anything about it for more than two weeks.

And I still do not understand why, instead of returning the camera immediately to Adorama, you obviously used it as if it was okay.

Third thing I do not understand is why suddenly, after two weeks, you got the feeling something was wrong, and that you had to act now.

I think not only Adorama, but every seller would find this a *little* suspicious.

I think Adorama might think "maybe someone used it with some lens not fitting properly and thus ruined the lens mount". (I recently talked to a Leica dealer in Cologne who ruined a M6 lens mount with a screwmount adapter he had wanted to sell me, lucky me, he tested it on one of his own cameras before it could scratch my M8.)

And I think Leica might think about whether someone who did ruin his lens mount might want to make them even out his fault.

Again, that´s just what one might think.

No allegations, it´s just that I have some doubts.

I too had some trouble with my brand new M8 (which I picked up in Solms myself), but after noticing something was wrong I told Leica immediately, brought the camera back and had it fixed in no time.

Regards

Stefan

[k_g_wolf ✝]

This could actually be pretty simple. ADORAMA should exchange the M8 to a brand new one.

 

ADORAMA could get a new bajonett fixed at LEICA NJ at little cost and sell the M6 as a s/h- item.

 

Just somebody has to take action to please a newby customer. A more experienced LEICA- user would have cried out at once. The salesperson at ADORAMA tried to take advantage of a customer not familiar with LEICA cameras, IMO.

 

Simon, I´am quite sure things will work out, just stay stubborn ...

 

 

Best

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[sgriffee]

Stefan: Of course I understand that this will look suspicious to Adorama and to Leica. It was my fault that I didn't post here or send the camera back to Adorama in the first day I got it. It was my first rangefinder and my first Leica camera, and I did a lot of research about the camera, including research on the 40mm Nokton lens which I ordered for it, before ordering. I was excited about the camera when I received it, though when I first opened it, I was suspicious of the look of the lensmount. I though to myself: "These cameras are supposed to be hand-made, so this is probably normal wear from testing it with several lenses at the factory."

 

I then began taking photographs with the camera for the next few days with my only lens, the brand new 40mm Nokton. Though I was very happy with the feel of the camera, I soon noticed that the camera was back-focusing quite a bit. I came to this forum and researched back-focus issues and found the solution about adjusting the rangefinder with the 2mm allen tool. I performed the adjustment very carefully and was happier with the result. However, this lowered my confidence in the camera further—I thought that spending so much money on a camera entitles me to a perfectly-working camera. So I began thinking about the lensmount marks again and decided to post to the forum to ask if it was normal (what I should have done from the beginning), and got the overwhelming response that the camera had obviously been abused and suggestions that I return it immediately. If I had not had the back-focus problems, I would likely have continued using the camera without ever posting here.

 

I've done my best to be as clear as possible and convince members of the forum, Adorama and Leica that the marks on the camera were there when I first received it. I've posted a photo of the back of my Nokton lens which doesn't show any marks.

 

Despite all of this, of course I understand that it is not possible to prove conclusively on an internet forum that the damage was there from the beginning. All I can do is give you and everyone else my word that this is true. I am an honest person, have nothing to hide, and am willing to back up anything I say here with my name and reputation—you can find my websites at http://simongriffee.com and at http://hypertexthero.com. I will also answer any questions anyone might have.

 

Again, I admit to having made a mistake when I didn't immediately report the problem to Adorama and didn't post to this forum earlier. But Adorama made the mistake to sell me an obviously used camera which I failed to act upon early enough through my inexperience and lapse of better judgment. All I want is what I paid for: a new, properly working Leica M8. After reading HCs reply above I have written Adorama once more in a calmer tone and explained to them that I would also accept a replacement if they can send it to me soon.