New Summicron

[IWC Doppel]

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PS, if you want to shoot this wide open outside with the M9M you will need to slap an ND filter on the front with 320 ISO..... I bet Erwin will have kittens about the impact that has on the 50 APO

 

[luigi bertolotti]

Yes Luigi - the chance you will buy them is maybe infinitesimally small, so is the chance that I will, but if you (and I) had the spare money ready, how high would the chance be that you would buy these products? In my case close to 100%.

 

Well, just to dream of... ... in my case

1) Close to 100%, I admit, for the Summicron... I tend to be not rational on glass...

2) for the M9M... seriously speaking, having it would be a simple pleasure (which puts it into the "Win Lottery" category) : taking the best of it would mean a hard learning curve on BW... not enough time for and probably not enough skill as a photographer... ; so, rationally speaking, with the cash in hand I'd find more appealing ways to spend it elsewhere (same field, of course, see point 1) )

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[luigi bertolotti]

PS, if you want to shoot this wide open outside with the M9M you will need to slap an ND filter on the front with 320 ISO..... I bet Erwin will have kittens about the impact that has on the 50 APO

 

True... but with such a lens, a filter on is anyway strongly recommendable for protecting such a precious glass... (and btw, Leica says that a yellow one is generally advisable... take it (2x), stretch to 160 ASA and you are almost ok with "sunny f16 rule" at 1/4000 f2...

[okram]

I am glad that they are investing in new M-mount lenses.

 

For a moment I was afraid that M10 will be new mount with AF, and that they will leave M-mount owners to the cameras before M10.

 

In that sense this lens is a good news.

[RobertJRB]

I am glad that they are investing in new M-mount lenses.

 

For a moment I was afraid that M10 will be new mount with AF, and that they will leave M-mount owners to the cameras before M10.

 

In that sense this lens is a good news.

 

Eeh, not that long ago they introduced 35/1.4, 21/3.4, 24/3.8, 18/3.8, 50/2.5, 35/2.5, 75/2.5, 90/2.5.

So don't worry

[jaapv]

PS, if you want to shoot this wide open outside with the M9M you will need to slap an ND filter on the front with 320 ISO..... I bet Erwin will have kittens about the impact that has on the 50 APO

 

 

 

I didn’t notice any kittens this morning - he had his very nice wife with him, but she did not have whiskers...

[biglou]

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Pico, megaPixels and megaBytes are two different things. The M9, compressed or uncompressed, is always an 18 megaPixel camera. Period.

 

The file size can be 18 megaBytes or 36 megaBytes (or 4-9 megaBytes in JPEG), depending on compression - but that corresponds to the amount of tonal data within each pixel - NOT more pixels.

 

 

Hi,

One thing i still do not understand.

For colour information you need three (at least) photosites combined on the leica captor to make 1 image point (i should have said rectangle, as this is how it looks).

How come the black and white version is only very little more defined, why dont we have three points where the M9 had one ?

Thanks a lot and please forgive my poor english.

[luigi bertolotti]

Pico, megaPixels and megaBytes are two different things. The M9, compressed or uncompressed, is always an 18 megaPixel camera. Period.

 

The file size can be 18 megaBytes or 36 megaBytes (or 4-9 megaBytes in JPEG), depending on compression - but that corresponds to the amount of tonal data within each pixel - NOT more pixels.

 

 

Hi,

One thing i still do not understand.

For colour information you need three (at least) photosites combined on the leica captor to make 1 image point (i should have said rectangle, as this is how it looks).

How come the black and white version is only very little more defined, why dont we have three points where the M9 had one ?

Thanks a lot and please forgive my poor english.

 

The color information is achieved through the so called "Bayer filter" in front of the sensor : a 2x2 pixel array of colored squares (2 green one red, one blue) : you can easily find many sources about details on it.

 

One interesting test that someone surely will do with the M9-M is that if you take 3 pictures of the same image, with three calibrated R,G,B, filters on the lens, then combine together the 3 image files with proper software, you can achieve a color image with (in theory) an incredible color detail...

[Jager]

Sometimes a company chooses to let its engineers loose. To build something special, that no one else has.

 

It doesn't have to do with sales, as those free-reign efforts are oftentimes loss leaders.

 

So why bother?

 

Well, you might do it to advance the art. Or you might do it to demonstrate what you're capable of. Certainly there is a none-too-subtle marketing element to that. Or you might do it, knowing that what you learn in the effort will later inform your other, more mainstream, efforts.

 

Leica never intended or expected for the new APO 50 to be their mainstream 50. For this lens, like the Noctilux f0.95 a few years ago, Leica gave their engineers a much longer leash than the usual it-must-be-built-to-this-price-point dictum.

 

And so what have they wrought? Have they gone to all this time and effort and sunk cost only to advance the number of 'bling' products that can adorn the 1%?

 

I tell you what I think... I think they built it for me.

 

Although far from rich - I drive a pickup truck - I think I might need to have this lens. Not because of any purported bling. I carry my M9 with me virtually everywhere and frankly it's a rare occasion when anyone knows what I have in my hand. If I was looking to impress, I think I'd choose something with a much higher ostentatious quotient.

 

No, I think I might need this lens simply because of the great pleasure I derive from owning and using the best cameras and optics in the world.

 

At the end of the day, photography is much more about light and composition and seeing, than anything else. None of us need a Leica-anything in order to produce outstanding imagery. That we choose to, that we're even on this forum, suggests that we've all already made a choice to advance to a point on the what-you-get-for-what-you-pay continuum beyond most people. The new 50 APO is simply a little further down that line.

 

The new 50 Summicron does not replace the old 50 Summicron. There's no need to rue the day.

 

The Magic Fly Rod

[biglou]

 

The color information is achieved through the so called "Bayer filter" in front of the sensor : a 2x2 pixel array of colored squares (2 green one red, one blue) : you can easily find many sources about details on it.

 

One interesting test that someone surely will do with the M9-M is that if you take 3 pictures of the same image, with three calibrated R,G,B, filters on the lens, then combine together the 3 image files with proper software, you can achieve a color image with (in theory) an incredible color detail...

 

Thank you Luigi for this answer.

I knew about the Bayer filter, and this was exactly why i asked.

If you remove this filter and are only interested in luminance for each pixel, in theory you do not need any more to use 2x2 photosites for one image pixel, one is enough.

So i still wonder why the M9M cannot display four image pixels where the M9 shows one.

Edited May 12, 2012 by biglou

[asoames]

 

So i still wonder why the M9M cannot display four image pixels where the M9 shows one.

 

Because the total number of photosites is the same in both cases. In a Bayer array camera, the rgb value at any particular photosite is calculated from the voltages measured at that site and surrounding sites. The M9 doesn't have 18M x 4 photosites collecting light, it has 18M, just like the Monochrom.

[biglou]

Because the total number of photosites is the same in both cases. In a Bayer array camera, the rgb value at any particular photosite is calculated from the voltages measured at that site and surrounding sites. The M9 doesn't have 18M x 4 photosites collecting light, it has 18M, just like the Monochrom.

 

This i understand, but then, if the M9 needs 4 phosites to get the colour information, does that mean that they found a way to " calculate " the colour for each site individually using information from 4 of them and then use each site as an image pixel ?

This must be what i didnt understood first.

Thank you

This seems clever

[philipus]

Unfortunately, leica do not offer a cheaper FF alternative to the M9, and from their perspective I guess they don't have to. I remember advice which recommended prioritising the purchase of good glass because digital bodies lose their value and are quickly dated. As I said, the next M body will cost over £7K, so if you have financial limits, like most of the members of this forum, the aforementioned advice to prioritise good glass is impossible to achieve. I guess buying a used m9 is a the best policy in this scenario

 

Well, there's always film cameras, let's not forget that.

 

I am not using 50mm lenses (I tried before) but that Summicron makes much more sense than any Noctilux for almost all applications..

 

Almost being, in the context of film photography, the operative word. It may be the sharpest and highest performing standard lens ever made. But it remains f/2.

 

What Leica has done is turn the 50 asph into the most inexpensive, most versatile best standard lens ever made.

Edited May 12, 2012 by philipus

[algrove]

When I am out shooting around other photographers, my most often asked question is "Are you still shooting film?". I then inform them that Leica now makes a digital camera. They just say "Oh, that's nice", and walk off carrying their Nikanon with zoom lens.

 

These same individuals never comment on the Leica glass, but when at workshops where we review each others prints, these same fellow photographers comment on how crisp my images are. Not that theirs are unsharp, but often they use HDR and/or over-sharpening techniques, IMHO, to make real scenes/landscapes look unreal.

 

If I used my current inventory of 50's as much as I use my other longer and shorter lenses, then this new lens would be on my want list, but I'd have to sell an old car in order to buy it.

[AlanG]

This i understand, but then, if the M9 needs 4 phosites to get the colour information, does that mean that they found a way to " calculate " the colour for each site individually using information from 4 of them and then use each site as an image pixel ?

This must be what i didnt understood first.

Thank you

This seems clever

 

That is how all cameras using Bayer type sensor do it. In the case of the M9, data is interpolated (made up) to make three separate 18 megapixel color channels (54 megabytes of data in 8 bit RGB) from only 9 megapixels of green information, 4.5 megapixels of blue info and 4.5 megapixels of red info. How camera companies structure the balance between processing for color and processing for detail is part of what they bring to the table in their firmware and raw conversion. Whereas if you shoot 3 color separated filtered images using the Monochrom M you will get 54 megapixels of data without any interpolation.

Edited May 12, 2012 by AlanG

[johnbuckley]

Sometimes a company chooses to let its engineers loose. To build something special, that no one else has.

 

It doesn't have to do with sales, as those free-reign efforts are oftentimes loss leaders.

 

So why bother?

 

Well, you might do it to advance the art. Or you might do it to demonstrate what you're capable of. Certainly there is a none-too-subtle marketing element to that. Or you might do it, knowing that what you learn in the effort will later inform your other, more mainstream, efforts.

 

Leica never intended or expected for the new APO 50 to be their mainstream 50. For this lens, like the Noctilux f0.95 a few years ago, Leica gave their engineers a much longer leash than the usual it-must-be-built-to-this-price-point dictum.

 

And so what have they wrought? Have they gone to all this time and effort and sunk cost only to advance the number of 'bling' products that can adorn the 1%?

 

I tell you what I think... I think they built it for me.

 

Although far from rich - I drive a pickup truck - I think I might need to have this lens. Not because of any purported bling. I carry my M9 with me virtually everywhere and frankly it's a rare occasion when anyone knows what I have in my hand. If I was looking to impress, I think I'd choose something with a much higher ostentatious quotient.

 

No, I think I might need this lens simply because of the great pleasure I derive from owning and using the best cameras and optics in the world.

 

At the end of the day, photography is much more about light and composition and seeing, than anything else. None of us need a Leica-anything in order to produce outstanding imagery. That we choose to, that we're even on this forum, suggests that we've all already made a choice to advance to a point on the what-you-get-for-what-you-pay continuum beyond most people. The new 50 APO is simply a little further down that line.

 

The new 50 Summicron does not replace the old 50 Summicron. There's no need to rue the day.

 

The Magic Fly Rod

 

Not for the first time, I find myself in almost complete agreement with you, Jeff. I am prepared to sell my 28 Elmarit, Tri-Elmar, and eventually, after I have the APO-Summicron, my 50 Summilux, in order to buy this lens.

 

Why? Because photography gives me enormous pleasure, and I believe this lens -- and the excitement of going out to see what I can do with it -- will enhance that pleasure.

 

I have not for a minute regretted selling lenses to afford the Noctilux, and I believe the same will be the case here.

[haroldp]

You have been helpful in this regard before. Please explain how 18MP is medium format.

.

 

It is not simply about pixels, but the total perceived performance of the lens/sensor system.

 

At any given level of technology at a point in time, such as photosite density /sensitivity, or lens performance (where it appears Leica have just raised the bar), the larger formats will always have an advantage. The smaller formats will have a size / price / versatility advantage.

 

The issue for many, particularly professionals is achieving the level of IQ that is 'good enough', or indistinguishable for the customer / assignment.

 

Each generation of improvement has seen the trend of pros to smaller formats because they have become progressively good enough for a wider range of customers and assignments.

 

This lens will raise the total perceived performance of the lens/sensor system even with the 18mp M9 another notch, and especially prepare Leica for the next generation .

 

While larger formats will avail themselves of new technologies, and maintain the 'absolute' gap, the bar will be above the 'good enough' gap for more and more people as each generation improves.

 

Regards .. H

[SteveYork]

Lots of gnashing of teeth over the price, but I suspect Leica will sell a fair number of these lenses. Recent history has proved that folks are willing to drop $5,000-$10,000 on a lens, if they believe it is special.

 

And the individual price, to a certain extent, is meaningless, because the numbers that count are the total investment in photography. I've been around these forums enough to know that some of the prolific posters, int his case, those complaining about the price, are also the people who have the most stuff. I'm a total hack, and I have 2 film Ms, 6 M lenses, 3 Leicaflex, and 9 R lenses -- the point being I have "X" invested in photography. If I want this new lens then I just sell some of the stuff until I have the $$$. I end up having less toys, but with this great lens in the arsenal, but the total investment stays the same.

 

And you can always sell the kids.

[haroldp]

Steve:

 

Add to your arguments that for many, the most expensive part of this hobby (or profession) is often traveling to where the photos will be taken. Therefore anything that improves our chances is worthwhile.

 

... H

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[jaapv]

Lots of gnashing of teeth over the price, but I suspect Leica will sell a fair number of these lenses. Recent history has proved that folks are willing to drop $5,000-$10,000 on a lens, if they believe it is special.

 

And the individual price, to a certain extent, is meaningless, because the numbers that count are the total investment in photography. I've been around these forums enough to know that some of the prolific posters, int his case, those complaining about the price, are also the people who have the most stuff. I'm a total hack, and I have 2 film Ms, 6 M lenses, 3 Leicaflex, and 9 R lenses -- the point being I have "X" invested in photography. If I want this new lens then I just sell some of the stuff until I have the $$$. I end up having less toys, but with this great lens in the arsenal, but the total investment stays the same.

 

And you can always sell the kids.

There cannot be enough gnashing of teeth as far as I am concerned. If there are enough fractures, I might be able to afford both the MM and the M10, which not as it is now..