New Summicron

[01af]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

How do you know?

I don't. I'm just responding to the pictures and flyers I see from the Berlin presentation, basically.

 

 

That design is still under development ...

It is? So there still is hope that they will get the details right, eventually. Glad to hear that.

[jaapv]

That price is not based on any cost-plus consideration, but on what the super-rich crazies are willing to pay. That estimate may be wrong, I don't know.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

 

Actually the margins on this lens are quite small. The price is based on the quality and cost of building it. It is meant as a super-lens for those that can afford it or have a compliant bank manager. As such it is in the same philosophy as the Noctilux and the wide Summiluxes. Build the best regardless.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

I don't. I'm just responding to the pictures and flyers I see from the Berlin presentation, basically.

 

 

 

It is? So there still is hope that they will get the details right, eventually. Glad to hear that.

Due to the small size it will never be a large hood. The last design is a rather nice twist-and-slide-out one that reminded me of the oculars of the Trinovids. And it has a filter thread if one wants to put on a longer hood. Not that it seems to be needed due to extreme flare-resistance.

The people that used the prototypes did not have complaints about the focus throw, and it did not strike me as too short in the five minutes I handled it. (sorry, no images it was on somebody else’s’ camera)

[georg]

The M9 Monochrom has 18MP, period.

 

The "demand/willing to pay" argument has been used often, in the past it hasn't really applied to Leica lenses, the 35SX Aspherical for example was 7000DM in 1990 (about 7000€ compensating inflation) because of a manually ground aspherical element, it's successor (SX35Asph) was significantly cheaper years later. So either there is a technical reason or Leica changed it's strategy (for the worse). I just wanted an answer from someone who talked to Mr Karbe/attended the event.

[onaujee]

jaapv,

 

Thanks for the info. I for one, is very interested in this lens. Any chance you have samples or have early comparisons against the 50 Lux? I know that the MTF charts is better than any other M lens out right now, is it really that special?

 

Best regards,

Juano

[Manolo Laguillo]

I was asking myself how big a print must be in order to really see the difference between a plain M9 + Summicron 50 (V) and M9M + Summicron 50 Apo, and then I read jaapv's post informing about that 100 cm enlargement.

 

Ladies and gentlemen, that's for me the crucial point: if you are not going to make bigger prints, you won't need that new combination. A print A3 in size is insufficient for showing that differences.

 

Because of the very same reason, upgrading from the M8 to the M9 is/was in reality not that necessary.

 

The same happens regarding a medium format digital system: who needs one? Mainly professional photographers. They not only need that plus in quality, they can justify the equipment's cost as well.

 

BTW, looking from this point of view puts the angriness of those that can´t afford/justify the 6000 € of the 50 APO under a new light.

 

If you don't need it, why do you feel you must have it? Only because of the fetishism associated with Leica? If that's the case, go for a therapy...

 

Some decades ago a pro was working with 4x5 and 8x10 view cameras and expensive lenses, and no amateur was angry because he/she could not afford/justify the expense of buying that type of equipment.

 

The new 50 APO is intended for the professional. And at the same time it wants to show how high the Leica standard is, and that they have the means for arriving at it.

 

If you don't need it, why do you need to buy it?

 

Therefore relax.

[01af]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The people that used the prototypes did not have complaints about the focus throw, and it did not strike me as too short in the five minutes I handled it.

The focus throw of the Summilux-M 50 mm Asph strikes me as too short every time I use it. Judging from the pictures, the new Apo-Summicron-M 50 mm Asph's focus throw is just the same—so it also is too short.

[01af]

I was asking myself how big a print must be in order to really see the difference between a plain M9 + Summicron-M 50 and M Monochrome + Apo-Summicron-M 50 Asph ...

If the subject is demanding—i. e. lots of fine detail across the whole frame—then I guess you will clearly see the difference in a 800 pixel web image.

[philipus]

The decision was made however to discontinue the project, because the drastically increased cost of the lens would not be proportionate to the performance increase. A 50mm Summicron must be a mainstay M lens, so it must be reasonable as a marketing proposition. Instead, the decision was made to radically redesign the 50mm Summilux, as this would bring a far more significant improvement. To my mind, that was the right decision to make.

 

Amen.

 

One thinks of JFK's speech, why go to the Moon? Not because it is easy, but because it is hard. But must we always go to the Moon?

 

Now luxury goods in pretty much any market are remarkably resilient to bad times. Just as H&M, our dear Swedish mega company, does well in Greece and Italy with its mini-priced t-shirts, tops and togs, so Leica does very well in the current (and recent-past) market climate, posting record gains in 2011 and even deciding to hand out a dividend.

 

It's nice when a company does well. But there comes a point when the company must ask itself what price it is willing to accept to sell. And I don't only mean the money it charges for its products; I mean goodwill.

 

Continuing along the course seemingly set at present, I would not be surprised if they keep luxuryising their goods even further, thus removing them from the original - and one could argue, intended - user of their equipment, the discerning photographer.

 

If this is where Dr Kaufmann intends to take the company, then he will really have to improve his skills in presenting new products. Hype up product releases, create a proper rumour buzz months ahead (the buzz around the internet pre-May 10 pales in comparison with the buzz surrounding Apple product launches, for instance). Remove Berliner Philhamoniker and hire Nicki Minaj, Will.I.am or some such empty-headed artist, play loud music and have lots of ladies with little pieces of shiny clothing walk about among the well-heeled crowd dangling 10,000$ cameras around their wrists like some pimped-up iPhone. And ensure that there's a proper venue and that all who appear dress to the occasion (a trumpeter in jeans?!).

 

Then he'd have gone full circle which is something I would, as a matter of principle, find appealing, because it is nice when men follow through. The result for the brand, however, would be infinitely sad.

Edited May 11, 2012 by philipus

[nelly]

This is an old project. It is well known that in the 1990's, a design study was made for an aspherical 50mm Summicron. On paper, this new design delivered very high performance where even the computed MTF curve for 40lpm wide open did never drop below 50% – and that is exactly what is claimed for the new Summicron.

 

The decision was made however to discontinue the project, because the drastically increased cost of the lens would not be proportionate to the performance increase. A 50mm Summicron must be a mainstay M lens, so it must be reasonable as a marketing proposition. Instead, the decision was made to radically redesign the 50mm Summilux, as this would bring a far more significant improvement. To my mind, that was the right decision to make.

 

But in this age of special event hype and internet hysteria, the definition of 'reasonable' may well have been changed beyond recognition. Also, as was amply shown during the 1930's, savage inequality in incomes and social rights is good for the super-luxury market. Here in Europe, in the U.S.A. and in China. So Mr Karbe did get his dream lens at last.

 

From now on, we know what kind of people Leica design and produce for. It is not for us.

 

But in order to maintain one's position in the superbling segment, it is not enough just to offer superexpensive products. This was not how Leica made its reputation. It was made by offering serious and innovative products for working photographers. That btw was how Max Berek saw it. Without that serious reputation, Leica would never have made it into the high-bling sector. And without it, Leica will slowly slip out of it again, down amongst the purveyors of the golden wristwatches with cheap electronic innards flaunted by small-time gangsters in seedy suburbs that I will not name here – you find them in every country.

 

Is this the new Leica Way? We'll see at the photokina. Meanwhile, I'm glad that I have the Leica lenses I have. And, yes, the M9 I have. And remember that the 1930's were followed by the 1940's.

 

The old man from the Berek Age

 

Lars I agree whole heartedly.

Leica has taken a very odd path away from serious photography towards a Uber wealthy and celebrity driven market

We need less bling and more innovative product development at a realistic price point

 

I personally have been hoping for a micro 4/3 Leica M camera soon with interchangeable lenses

Now if this had a dedicated B&W sensor and was priced around $2500 I know a number of photographers who would jump on it.

Please Leica give us innovation but give us tools we need and can afford. The new 50mm summicron may indeed be a masterpiece but I need something I can use and not just to admire in some museum.

And yes I am glad to have my M9 and the lenses I have.

[swamiji]

I agree Lars, but I think its portend of things to come. As in the price of the M10, and other new high end lenses. S2 prices here we come.

[Paul J]

I'm really very excited about this lens. It's a taste of what is to come for M Cameras.

 

If I can ditch my medium format rig entirely for an M system then I will as soon as I possibly can.

 

I'm really eager to see the results of this and how it will comparably work on the M9.

[delander †]

It could be my mistake but when you look at the MTF graphs for the new Summicron ASPH, Leica seem to have got the sagittal and tangential curves the wrong way around, certainly compared to the same graphs for other lenses.

 

Jeff

[exile]

This new lens looks absolutely fantastic.

It is clearly intended for professional high-end photographers (specifically, those who do actually NEED to print very big).

However, probably more sales will go to people who want to play at being high-end photographers in their spare time and can afford the entry ticket.

I have absolutely no problem with this what_so_ever.

 

I will never be able to afford the price, but I can still admire the artistry.

 

Congratulations to the Leica design team for pushing the limits further with this 50 and recording all of their learnings in lab books for future Leica teams to pour over. I am sure these cutting edge technologies will gradually filter down to less "premium" M lenses over time.

[luigi bertolotti]

To position the price tag of this new Summicron well ABOVE the already legendary Summilux asph is by sure a very original move... I think Leica never acted like this, at least for a lens that, apparently, is announced as a standard listed item, not a limited production run : I'm curios to see impressions that will arrive in due time : of course, the big prints they exhibited in Berlin HAD to be superb... nothing less can be displayed for such an event; also the Erwin Puts essay about (he's probably working on it...) will be interesting to read...

Problem is that, I think, it will be difficult to show the full potential on web published pics... MTF data are impressive... and a 50mm f 2 design that needs EIGHT elements must have been a really ultrarefined design (remember the ELCAN 50 f2, made in 4 elements because, they say, the std. 6 elements Summicron exceeded the US Army specs ? )

I won't ever buy it, of course, but once again an intriguing product from their legendary lens department... we'll see if it will establish itself as a milestone lens as, in a certain sense, also the first Summicron did.

 

My impression is that, on another side... this lens can be of no great appeal for "simply rich"... is a bit minimalist in style and surely less "exhibitable" than a S2 or a Noctilux...

Edited May 11, 2012 by luigi bertolotti

[IkarusJohn]

. But in the digital world, a 24x36mm sensor will not beat a medium format sensor using the same basic technology, because that technology can be applied to a larger sensor surface with a proportionately larger pixel count. A bloated file will not compensate for that, because obviously, a medium format file can be bloated even more!

 

Come on Lars, it's not hard. What Jaap is saying is that 18 MP without a Bayer array has better resolution than what you expect from medium format film or digital with an array. Sure, if you remove the array from a medium format digital sensor, the results should be correspondingly better.

 

What Jaap was saying was that the images from the M9-M are what you would expect from a medium format camera. That's nothing to do with bloated files or anything like that.

 

In your words, the 35mm format and medium format sensor are not using the same basic technology. That's the point.

 

Not so young man sticking to the point.

[andyedward]

It could be my mistake but when you look at the MTF graphs for the new Summicron ASPH, Leica seem to have got the sagittal and tangential curves the wrong way around, certainly compared to the same graphs for other lenses.

 

Jeff

 

The APO 50 cron mtf for f2 looks similar to the 70mm S2 @ f2.5, which can't be a bad thing! At 5.6 the 50 looks better, but there's obviously more to it than mtf alone. As jaap said, images from the new 50 are more akin to MF.

 

The only downside is the price. Leicas marketing blurb states it is designed to perform with high resolution cameras, which partly justifies the price when you consider that the next M body may have over 30mp, though I`m sure none of the other current 50s will perform badly!

 

I have considered selling my d3x to part finance this lens, rendering me camera-less for a few months, because I can imaging owning the new 50 cron for a long time, regardless of which camera I mount it on.

Edited May 11, 2012 by andyedward

[Manolo Laguillo]

Let's agree that the Sigma Foveon sensor has 3x the number of pixels, because it has 3 layers, so I have a question regarding the new M9M:

 

if the M9 colour has a 18 mexapixels sensor, how many megapixels has the M9 M, considering that, so to say, in the b/w camera one and every pixel really counts, because no more interpolation is needed?

 

in other words: the colour sensor, having the same quantity of pixels than the b/w one, "behaves as if" it had_less_pixels than the b/w one.

 

...

 

I don't need the f. 1.4 from the Summiluxes, nor the 0.95 from the Noctilux, therefore I don´t care about their price.

 

I sold my Summicron 50 (V) because I need the new Summarit 50's better behaviour. This Summarit is, BTW, cheaper, since it appeared, than the Summicron 50 (V).

 

The prices for a 50 mm Leica lens go from 1200 € to whatever the Noctilux may cost, being the 6000€ of the 50 APO in between.

 

It's up to the photographer what he/she REALLY needs.

 

What is all this raving about Leica's prices? I really can´t follow it.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Manolo Laguillo

[SteveYork]

This is an old project. It is well known that in the 1990's, a design study was made for an aspherical 50mm Summicron. On paper, this new design delivered very high performance where even the computed MTF curve for 40lpm wide open did never drop below 50% – and that is exactly what is claimed for the new Summicron.

 

The decision was made however to discontinue the project, because the drastically increased cost of the lens would not be proportionate to the performance increase. A 50mm Summicron must be a mainstay M lens, so it must be reasonable as a marketing proposition. Instead, the decision was made to radically redesign the 50mm Summilux, as this would bring a far more significant improvement. To my mind, that was the right decision to make.

 

But in this age of special event hype and internet hysteria, the definition of 'reasonable' may well have been changed beyond recognition. Also, as was amply shown during the 1930's, savage inequality in incomes and social rights is good for the super-luxury market. Here in Europe, in the U.S.A. and in China. So Mr Karbe did get his dream lens at last.

 

From now on, we know what kind of people Leica design and produce for. It is not for us.

 

But in order to maintain one's position in the superbling segment, it is not enough just to offer superexpensive products. This was not how Leica made its reputation. It was made by offering serious and innovative products for working photographers. That btw was how Max Berek saw it. Without that serious reputation, Leica would never have made it into the high-bling sector. And without it, Leica will slowly slip out of it again, down amongst the purveyors of the golden wristwatches with cheap electronic innards flaunted by small-time gangsters in seedy suburbs that I will not name here – you find them in every country.

 

Is this the new Leica Way? We'll see at the photokina. Meanwhile, I'm glad that I have the Leica lenses I have. And, yes, the M9 I have. And remember that the 1930's were followed by the 1940's.

 

The old man from the Berek Age

 

Good post. This matches my memory too, regarding the 50mm Summicron.

 

But remember this was not Photokina. This was just a mid-year announcement to keep the enthusiasm going. Leica will have to offer less expensive products (but still high quality) to maintain their customer base, although I've been surprised how willing folks have been to shell out money for M9s, Noctiluxes and Summiluxes in the last year or so. Maybe Leica noticed too.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[SteveYork]

How much sharpness does a photographer need? The previous version Summicron is already sharp enough at f2 and its only flaw is a tendency towards a bit of flariness (and even then, flare makes as many images as it breaks). The new lens is a technical and marketing exercise that has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual needs of photographers.

 

I'm sure that Leica will sell as many of these as they can make, but they'll primarily be worn as male jewelry in Hong Kong and Monaco rather than be used to make meaningful photos.

 

People tend to forget in the digital age that great pictures can be taken with any equipment from any age. I don't blame a company from pushing the envelope, but it's very far from actually needed. I do blame photographers for forgetting that there's to more to pictures then pixel peeping, resolution, sharpness, ect. What ever happened to light and composition? Folks, you could take great pictures with the stuff you had in the closet last week. These new products hasn't changed that fact.