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New Summicron


Fgcm

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Come on Lars, it's not hard. What Jaap is saying is that 18 MP without a Bayer array has better resolution than what you expect from medium format film or digital with an array. Sure, if you remove the array from a medium format digital sensor, the results should be correspondingly better.

 

It would, I dare say, be easier to understand what I wrote if you would actually read it.

 

I do however disagree even with your interpretation of what Jaap wrote. And with Jaap, too. Sean Reid's careful test shows that while the removal of the Bayer array (and consequently no demosaicing and reconstruction of the image) does result in an increase of definition that is barely visible at 100% viewing, this is surely not enough to compensate for the advantage of a larger sensor with twice as many pixels.

 

I would say that the improvement would be visible, IF:

 

— you put the camera on a heavy duty tripod; and

— killed the subject so that it could not move; and

— focus-bracketed carefully to minimise unwanted defocus blur, and

— printed to meter size.

 

The simple fact of shooting hand-held (and with undead subjects to boot) will completely mask any definition advantage that the M9M has. So it boils down to a matter of shooting style. Like they say, a Harley-Davidson is not a motorcycle, it is an attitude.

 

The camera will force you into a dedicated black-and-white frame of mind. That may be a discipline you need. But back in the bad old days of film, we used sometimes the trick of pre-viewing the subject through a strong green filter. It removed all other colours, making the subject essentially monochromatic. I can recommend this trick to aspiring b&w photographers. And it is quite a bit cheaper than a M9Monochrome.

 

And here's another thought: Can you point to one single picture by Henri Cartier-Bresson, Robert Capa, Robert Frank, Garry Winogrand, Eliott Erwitt – you name them – that would have been made more striking by five percent more resolution?

 

The old man from the Tri-X Age

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But remember this was not Photokina. This was just a mid-year announcement to keep the enthusiasm going. Leica will have to offer less expensive products (but still high quality) to maintain their customer base, although I've been surprised how willing folks have been to shell out money for M9s, Noctiluxes and Summiluxes in the last year or so. Maybe Leica noticed too.

 

Let's be charitable and say that last night's hoopla in Berlin, giggle-water and all, was to get some fripperies out of the way in time for the Photokina. The salient product at that event, as I have stated before, is not the possible M10. It will be the new EVIL-based line. And that will not just decide whether Herr Kaufmann will eventually have his one percent market share – but whether Leica will sail or sink.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

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The APO 50 cron mtf for f2 looks similar to the 70mm S2 @ f2.5, which can't be a bad thing! At 5.6 the 50 looks better, but there's obviously more to it than mtf alone. As jaap said, images from the new 50 are more akin to MF.

 

The only downside is the price. Leicas marketing blurb states it is designed to perform with high resolution cameras, which partly justifies the price when you consider that the next M body may have over 30mp, though I`m sure none of the other current 50s will perform badly!

 

I have considered selling my d3x to part finance this lens, rendering me camera-less for a few months, because I can imaging owning the new 50 cron for a long time, regardless of which camera I mount it on.

 

I dont think you got my point. Look at page 3 of the pdf and compare it with page 3 of any other lens pdf. Where it says ––––––––––– tangential stuctures followed by – – – – – sagittal structures. This is the opposite of all other lenses?

 

Jeff

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One of the more curious claims being made on this thread is the notion that the increased resolution offered by this lens will somehow magically lead us into the realms of medium format imagery. The look of medium format, as opposed to 35mm, was never about pure resolution. Look at a print made from a neg produced by, say, a 75mm Summicron with Pan F, then look at a print from a medium format Holga with Tri-X. The Leica print will have way more res than the Holga print, but the medium format look will still resolutely be with the Holga.

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I dont think you got my point. Look at page 3 of the pdf and compare it with page 3 of any other lens pdf. Where it says ––––––––––– tangential stuctures followed by – – – – – sagittal structures. This is the opposite of all other lenses?

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, I did get you point - compared to the mtf for many other lenses, there is an inversion of the tangenial and sagittal curves at 5lp/mm @f2. What I meant is that I don't think it will be a cause for concern

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Lars I agree whole heartedly.

Leica has taken a very odd path away from serious photography towards a Uber wealthy and celebrity driven market

We need less bling and more innovative product development at a realistic price point

 

I personally have been hoping for a micro 4/3 Leica M camera soon with interchangeable lenses

Now if this had a dedicated B&W sensor and was priced around $2500 I know a number of photographers who would jump on it.

Please Leica give us innovation but give us tools we need and can afford. The new 50mm summicron may indeed be a masterpiece but I need something I can use and not just to admire in some museum.

And yes I am glad to have my M9 and the lenses I have.

 

Reminds me of Gursky, Damien Hirst, Takashi Murakami - just as examples - art prices.

 

It's more about the art of marketing than about photo, painting or sculpture.

 

Leica has the disadvantage of not having their products being bought and presented by museums (also tax sponsored ones). This could be the next challenge.

Edited by tri
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Actually the margins on this lens are quite small. The price is based on the quality and cost of building it. It is meant as a super-lens for those that can afford it or have a compliant bank manager. As such it is in the same philosophy as the Noctilux and the wide Summiluxes. Build the best regardless.

 

There's no way for anyone outside of Leica to have information on how much this lens costs to build. I'd be surprised if Leica gave that information out. But Leica always maintained, from years back, that to improve the current 50 Summicron it would be very costly. Even the cynical side of me was surprised with this pricing.

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I am over the concept that Leica gear is expensive (primarily) due the high cost of R&D and the exotic materials used. Until I see a breakdown of R&D costs- and say: advertising expenditure, or the cost of all these new retail outlets- I will remain cynical of any direct or meaningful link between R&D and final lens pricing.

 

I think this lens is absurdly expensive.

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This is an old project. It is well known that in the 1990's, a design study was made for an aspherical 50mm Summicron. On paper, this new design delivered very high performance where even the computed MTF curve for 40lpm wide open did never drop below 50% – and that is exactly what is claimed for the new Summicron.

 

The decision was made however to discontinue the project, because the drastically increased cost of the lens would not be proportionate to the performance increase. A 50mm Summicron must be a mainstay M lens, so it must be reasonable as a marketing proposition. Instead, the decision was made to radically redesign the 50mm Summilux, as this would bring a far more significant improvement. To my mind, that was the right decision to make.

 

But in this age of special event hype and internet hysteria, the definition of 'reasonable' may well have been changed beyond recognition. Also, as was amply shown during the 1930's, savage inequality in incomes and social rights is good for the super-luxury market. Here in Europe, in the U.S.A. and in China. So Mr Karbe did get his dream lens at last.

 

From now on, we know what kind of people Leica design and produce for. It is not for us.

 

But in order to maintain one's position in the superbling segment, it is not enough just to offer superexpensive products. This was not how Leica made its reputation. It was made by offering serious and innovative products for working photographers. That btw was how Max Berek saw it. Without that serious reputation, Leica would never have made it into the high-bling sector. And without it, Leica will slowly slip out of it again, down amongst the purveyors of the golden wristwatches with cheap electronic innards flaunted by small-time gangsters in seedy suburbs that I will not name here – you find them in every country.

 

Is this the new Leica Way? We'll see at the photokina. Meanwhile, I'm glad that I have the Leica lenses I have. And, yes, the M9 I have. And remember that the 1930's were followed by the 1940's.

 

The old man from the Berek Age

 

A totaly hypothetica situation: someone would steal your 1.4/50A.

And there would be a shorter waiting list to buy a 1.4/35A FLE than this wonder 2/50A.

 

Would you trade you 35mm Summilux FLE, that you were so exuberant about, for this new 2/50A, which costs even more?

Edited by tri
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Jeff, I did get you point - compared to the mtf for many other lenses, there is an inversion of the tangenial and sagittal curves at 5lp/mm @f2. What I meant is that I don't think it will be a cause for concern

 

 

The point is that Leica have assigned the name tangential to the solid lines and sagittal to the broken lines, this is different to their technical data for all other lenses. Read their text and you will see the mistake.

 

Jeff

Edited by delander †
added a sentence to clarify
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I really don't think it is. Professional photographers are well aware that no matter how much detail this lens resolves the differences between this and any other decent lens will be marginal in print.

 

The primary market for this lens is the Gucci-clad guy in Hong Kong or Moscow who needs the best (read most expensive) lens on the best camera to match the best watch, best car, best yacht...The secondary market is the photo geek equivalent of the audiophile who's prepared to spend ever more to leverage miniscule improvements that are irrelevant to the art of image making.

 

M lenses have been sharp enough for decades and it's a shame that as a company Leica has so lost track of what photographers want.

 

I have the feeling that this has become an overheated succession of monologues:

 

are we really reading what the others are writing?

 

do we want to hear the opinion of someone apparently belonging to the "enemy"?

 

If you, almoore, would have read what I wrote in a previous post ("a print in A3 size won't be able to show the differences") your writing would have been different :).

 

...

 

Let's suppose we agree: paying 1200 euros for a 50 Summarit is allright, and paying 6000 euros for a 50 APO is a shame. The Summarit is non luxury, and the APO is luxury.

 

Ok, now let's ask somebody living a whole year with only a fraction of those 1200 euros what he/she thinks about our concept of luxury / not luxury...

 

...

 

What's the reason for all this bitterness? With all due respect: I suspect this bitterness has to do with not being able to pay those 6000 euros for the new 50 APO...;):)

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I'm still extremely angry that Porsche came out with the Carrera GT.

That extra few percent for rich guys is so unecessary compared to the GT3. Its just a bling Porsche for rich guys. Meanwhile I must settle for regular ole Porsche.

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A totaly hypothetica situation: someone would steal your 1.4/50A.

And there would be a shorter waiting list to buy a 1.4/35A FLE than this wonder 2/50A.

 

Would you trade you 35mm Summilux FLE, that you were so exuberant about, for this new 2/50A, which costs even more?

I would cash in on the insurance and queue up for a new 50mm Summilux ASPH.

 

The old man from the Age of the 5cm Elmar

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jaapv,

 

Thanks for the info. I for one, is very interested in this lens. Any chance you have samples or have early comparisons against the 50 Lux? I know that the MTF charts is better than any other M lens out right now, is it really that special?

 

Best regards,

Juano

 

No- I got the feeling Leica is still twiddling the final touches.

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And here's another thought: Can you point to one single picture by Henri Cartier-Bresson, Robert Capa, Robert Frank, Garry Winogrand, Eliott Erwitt – you name them – that would have been made more striking by five percent more resolution?

 

Exactly.

 

And, by the same token, we also didn't need the 50 Summilux asph to make our pictures better in any way that really counts. (I own one anyway.)

 

So, we all make decisions about what we want, not just what we need, and we should be happy about that...and ignore the rest IMO.

 

I'm all for choices. Let's hope that Leica is making the right choices for their profitability and long term viability. I agree that yesterday's announcements had little to do with the latter; that will depend much more on new products (not the M) aimed at more people, possibly starting at Photokina.

 

My interest is more for Leica than for my own photo needs (although I'm not immune to temptation). I haven't needed more resolution to reveal either my talents or my weaknesses. The M8.2 still suffices for proving either on a regular basis. It really IS all about the pictures. But the forums are a bad place to keep that in mind.

 

Think I'll go out shooting for the rest of the day.

 

Jeff

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First off, I won't be buying this lens. I mean I will really try not to. But, it is an absolutely amazing piece of optic. The corner to corner sharpness and high contrast is really an achievement. I'd be the first to congratulate Peter for this amazing lens. On future high pixel M systems it is going to be amazing. Think about that D800 sensor in the M10 with a lens like this. What would touch it? And, more, what amazing images the system would produce. I think it is a marvel.

 

The cost is something everyone has to work out for themselves just like they do with a Noctilux or an exotic super car. This lens for most would be a once in a lifetime lens, like a sports car but, less.

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Discussing pricing of Leica Camera products, one has to realize their target markets. Also where Leica expect to sell the most.

 

It is not the Western world. Not even Japan.

 

They have a market of millions that they want to target. Market with the funds to indulge in

' status ' and a market where possession of the best and most expensive equates to material success.

 

Which company would not target such a possible market.

 

Leica and ' practical ' pricing are mutually eclusive.

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It's all good - there are thousands upon thousands of other nice lenses to choose from if this one doesn't suit you. :)

 

This one just bumps up where the top-end of the extreme is. Works for me.

 

Besides, why wouldn't you want the envelope to be continually pushed? That's called "progress." And who better to do it than Leica? Bravo.

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