rondeb Posted October 8, 2009 Share #121 Posted October 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) From you actual release of the shutter, how long is the delay. None, it's Instant. (And then there's an audible delay till the rewind begins; eventually take off the lens and look what the shutter curtain does - the sound of delay is not a picture taking delay but the rewind delay. But if you only listen you might get the idea there's a delay). . I'm sorry to still disagree - at least with the 3 M9's I've shot with. Check out the audio sample I posted-http://gallery.me.com/rondeb#100280 I've never noticed this delay in my M8 or M8.2. It is a different timing. I'd love it if you or someone else with an M9 could please post an audio file to compare. Thanks! -Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 Hi rondeb, Take a look here M9 shutter lag?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Overgaard Posted October 8, 2009 Share #122 Posted October 8, 2009 I'm sorry to still disagree - at least with the 3 M9's I've shot with. Check out the audio sample I posted-http://gallery.me.com/rondeb#100280 I've never noticed this delay in my M8 or M8.2. It is a different timing. I'd love it if you or someone else with an M9 could please post an audio file to compare. Thanks! -Ron Well, not to make you wrong. But I don't believe in sound. I could think of many good reasons to delay the sound-making mechanisms int he M9. You have to LOOK at what the shutter curtain does. It looks different than it sounds because from the sound alone it sounds as it delays. The curtain does move instantly when you press the shutter, the sound comes after the picture. - And does by the way have a sound as if it is dragging. I think you will notice that the sounds you hear is the after-the-shot sounds, and I think its wise if they deliberately paused the recocking a bit so as to avoid any movements in the camera till she picture has been taken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted October 9, 2009 Share #123 Posted October 9, 2009 OK, so in cases like this, the best is to ask Leica directly. My experience has always been that they are pretty open and answer questions reliably and in a satisfactory way. I sent an email to Leica yesterday and received a reply from Stefan Daniel himself today. Here's the word: My guess that the difference between the analog Ms and the M8/M9 is due to electronics was right. Most of the time is needed to "refresh" the sensor. According to Mr. Daniel, the shutter lag on the M8 is between 70ms and 80ms while the M9's shutter lag is 100ms because the sensor is bigger. The shutter lag for the analog M models is pretty much the same for all and is between 12ms and 15ms. Kudos and thanks to Mr. Daniel! I doubt that a normal customer like me would get an immediate response from the director of product management at Canon or Nikon if asking such a question... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted October 9, 2009 Share #124 Posted October 9, 2009 According to Mr. Daniel, the shutter lag on the M8 is between 70ms and 80ms while the M9's shutter lag is 100ms because the sensor is bigger. The shutter lag for the analog M models is pretty much the same for all and is between 12ms and 15ms. So, the shutter lag of the M9 turns out to be roughly between six and eight times that of the analog M cameras. Interesting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondeb Posted October 9, 2009 Share #125 Posted October 9, 2009 [quote name=nhabedi;1071867 According to Mr. Daniel' date=' the shutter lag on the M8 is between 70ms and 80ms while the M9's shutter lag is 100ms because the sensor is bigger. The shutter lag for the analog M models is pretty much the same for all and is between 12ms and 15ms. )[/quote] Thank you for this! I guess I'm not nuts after all. I wonder, though, if Leica can get this lag down to at least M8 levels. The small difference makes a big difference in feel to me. The M9 is sluggish. I still love it - but it's sluggish to feel, sluggish to fire. Best, Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted October 9, 2009 Share #126 Posted October 9, 2009 OK, so in cases like this, the best is to ask Leica directly. My experience has always been that they are pretty open and answer questions reliably and in a satisfactory way. I sent an email to Leica yesterday and received a reply from Stefan Daniel himself today. Here's the word: My guess that the difference between the analog Ms and the M8/M9 is due to electronics was right. Most of the time is needed to "refresh" the sensor. According to Mr. Daniel, the shutter lag on the M8 is between 70ms and 80ms while the M9's shutter lag is 100ms because the sensor is bigger. The shutter lag for the analog M models is pretty much the same for all and is between 12ms and 15ms. Kudos and thanks to Mr. Daniel! I doubt that a normal customer like me would get an immediate response from the director of product management at Canon or Nikon if asking such a question... Thanks for this. Make sense. So if the M9 did 10 fps, one would miss the first one (which is one way of relating to how much 100 ms is). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 9, 2009 Share #127 Posted October 9, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ... According to Mr. Daniel, the shutter lag on the M8 is between 70ms and 80ms.... Pretty well confirms usefulness of the Ed Schwartz Shutter Release Test through which i got 70ms for the M8, 90ms for the 5D and 50ms for the R-D1 is raw mode. Would be interesting to know if the M8 or M9 shutter lag is reduced in jpeg mode. FWIW the R-D1 is much faster then (20ms). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondeb Posted October 9, 2009 Share #128 Posted October 9, 2009 Thanks for this. Make sense. So if the M9 did 10 fps, one would miss the first one (which is one way of relating to how much 100 ms is). Yes - BUT the one you'd miss would be the 1st one, wouldn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted October 9, 2009 Share #129 Posted October 9, 2009 Would be interesting to know if the M8 or M9 shutter lag is reduced in jpeg mode. The sensor has to be refreshed in both cases, so there shouldn't be any difference. A difference between RAW and JPG, for all I know, can only materialize itself after the shot has been taken. (Which makes me wonder why you think there is one before the shot on the Epson.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 9, 2009 Share #130 Posted October 9, 2009 So, what Stefan told us is, that there hardly a way one can see a difference between M8 and M9. Also, 100ms is "instant" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted October 9, 2009 Share #131 Posted October 9, 2009 I too am pleased to learn I'm not going mad. 100ms is on the sluggish side in comparison to a similar priced SLRs and particularly in comparison to the film Ms. And before I get shot down for saying that, M users, and Leica themselves, always boasted about the instant shutter response of the film M in comparison to an SLR, and the big advantage that brings in capturing the 'decisive moment'. Strange then that many couldn't actually tell the difference, when the M9 is obviously much slower - at least 5 times slower - as has now been confirmed. However, good on Leica for just coming out with the facts without being defensive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondeb Posted October 9, 2009 Share #132 Posted October 9, 2009 So, what Stefan told us is, that there hardly a way one can see a difference between M8 and M9. Also, 100ms is "instant" Perhaps that is what I'm saying, but I'm not alone being able to tell the difference. Don't get me wrong - this is a great camera. Better than the M8 and M8.2. I'm not even a sports shooter. I shoot events and weddings for work, everything else - especially street - for myself. I'm simply noting the noticeable difference and hope that this can be tightened up a bit via firmware. We know they need to speed up the card formatting, why not address this lag as well. -Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted October 9, 2009 Share #133 Posted October 9, 2009 Yes - BUT the one you'd miss would be the 1st one, wouldn't it? Not if you have the timing/rhythm in. But if you expect it to be instant (as in 0 ms) you will miss it. And if you expect the exposure to be delayed 400 ms you will miss it too. When I shoot series of three with the Digilux 2 (as I always do), I often time it so that when a person will be walking through the frame, I get him in the left side, in the center and on his way out the frame. I don't know how you do it, you just suddenly have whatever the delay and rhythm is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat_mcdermott Posted October 9, 2009 Share #134 Posted October 9, 2009 Strange then that many couldn't actually tell the difference, when the M9 is obviously much slower - at least 5 times slower - as has now been confirmed. It's quite possible that many of the people reviewing/previewing the M9 had grown used to the M8 shutter and didn't notice the difference between that and the M9, nor thought to test it against a film M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted October 9, 2009 Share #135 Posted October 9, 2009 Perhaps that is what I'm saying, but I'm not alone being able to tell the difference. Don't get me wrong - this is a great camera. Better than the M8 and M8.2. I'm not even a sports shooter. I shoot events and weddings for work, everything else - especially street - for myself. I'm simply noting the noticeable difference and hope that this can be tightened up a bit via firmware. We know they need to speed up the card formatting, why not address this lag as well. -Ron Well Ron, you're not alone in being able to detect the difference. Most pros can very distinctly tell the difference between a film M (15ms) and a professional SLR (49ms), one of the reasons the film M was so great for work requiring precise timing. Going from 80 to 100 must also be noticeable - and it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondeb Posted October 9, 2009 Share #136 Posted October 9, 2009 Thanks for the confirmation Marcus. Anyone out there think this could be "fixed" via firmware? -Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 9, 2009 Share #137 Posted October 9, 2009 The sensor has to be refreshed in both cases, so there shouldn't be any difference. A difference between RAW and JPG, for all I know, can only materialize itself after the shot has been taken. (Which makes me wonder why you think there is one before the shot on the Epson.) I don't think anything. Just sharing my experience here. The R-D1's shutter lag is much shorter in jpeg mode actually. Easy to check with the test i referred to above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted October 10, 2009 Share #138 Posted October 10, 2009 Resetting the sensor comes to mind. Or "emptying" it - don't know what's the right word in English. Michael Hußmann just explained in the German forum what has to happen before the shutter is opened to let light fall on the sensor. I have no idea how long it would take to empty a full-frame CCD sensor, though, or if resetting a CCD sensor takes longer than resetting a CMOS sensor. Could you post a link to Michael's description? BTW, thanks to you and tgray for telling me how to find the Google HTML cache. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 10, 2009 Share #139 Posted October 10, 2009 It's quite possible that many of the people reviewing/previewing the M9 had grown used to the M8 shutter and didn't notice the difference between that and the M9, nor thought to test it against a film M. Mat, you can't tell the difference of 20, say 30ms. And even if you could because you had some kind of esoteric super clock, even then it wouldn't really make a difference. Even when comparing with lag of an MP even then it wouldn't make a difference. And as for sensor refreshes, I don't get it either: why don't they do it when the motor rewinds to cock? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat_mcdermott Posted October 10, 2009 Share #140 Posted October 10, 2009 I can't imagine you'd notice a difference either -- I haven't between the M8 and the M6, even though on paper there is a difference... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.