michael_b_elmer Posted October 5, 2009 Share #21 Posted October 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Wikipedia defines shutter lag as a delay between the time where the shutter is triggered and the time where the picture is taken. I haven't felt any more shutter lag in this sense on my two m8's and my m8.2 than on the 15-16 film Leicas that I have had over the years. I haven't yet received my m9 so I cannot tell whether there is any difference between the m9 and the m8.2 but from what I have read there should not be any difference. In other words and put more frankly: It makes no sense to say that you can notice a shutter lag on Leica's digital m cameras. It simply is unnoticeable. I suggest you read Mark Nortons famous thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/21331-anatomy-leica-m8-18.html where you can see how the shutter of the m8 is triggered. I would guess that the shutter of the m7 is triggered in much the same way, but Mark Norton may correct me if I am wrong. Of course, it cannot be excluded completely that there could be a fault in the shutter on the one camera that you have tried - perhaps being caused by a too large amount of the silicone filled into the armature in order to insulate it. So try another camera - there is absolutely no reason at all to drop the idea of acquiring a M9 on the ground that you experience shutter lag - what you seem to notice must be something else. If, on the other hand, you really want to experience shutter lag in a Leica camera, try the Digilux 2 - a wonderful camera unfortunately with shutter lag as its major problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Hi michael_b_elmer, Take a look here M9 shutter lag?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stevelap Posted October 5, 2009 Share #22 Posted October 5, 2009 I agree. I'd argue that what is being discussed here is really the perception of lag, due to the different sound and feel of the digital M's motorised shutter mechanism. I've no doubt that true leg can be measured scientifically in milliseconds, and the M9 may or may not be slightly different than the M8 in this respect, but I doubt that it can be sensed by the photographer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondeb Posted October 5, 2009 Share #23 Posted October 5, 2009 Of course, it cannot be excluded completely that there could be a fault in the shutter on the one camera that you have tried - So try another camera - there is absolutely no reason at all to drop the idea of acquiring a M9 on the ground that you experience shutter lag - what you seem to notice must be something else. . I have experienced this on 3 different M9's. It's just different. When you push the shutter its "ch...chunk." The M8.2 has the chchunk also, just spaced closer together and firing faster. Ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 5, 2009 Share #24 Posted October 5, 2009 I'm amazed this has not been noted more by M9 users. Are you shooting with the M9? I would agree the "lag" is nearly non-existent on the M8.2, but it is definitely there in the M9. Speak up M9'ers. -Ron Yes Ron, I've been shooting M9 for a few months - but now you are intriguing me... so I will check it against M8 and M8.2 and get back to you on this. Cheers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 5, 2009 Share #25 Posted October 5, 2009 ...For the M8 the shutter lag according to Leica is 80ms... FWIW last time i did the Ed Schwartz's Test in raw mode, the M8 was a bit faster (about 0.07 sec) than the D70 (0.08) vs 0.09 for the 5D and 0.05 sec for the R-D1. Did not test the M9 yet. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted October 5, 2009 Share #26 Posted October 5, 2009 Any SLR camera has of necessity a long shutter lag, because it has to get the mirror out of the way before the shutter starts rolling. The Nikon FM cameras were notorious for this; not only was there a lag of nearly a second, but also lots of movement during that time. If you put the camera in your open hand and released the shutter with a cable release, you could actually feel it jump! The F cameras jumped less simply because they were heavier. Bad engineering, in my opinion. Any camera must have a shutter lag. Even the best tuned target gun has a perceptible 'lock time' from the 'breaking' of the trigger to the bang. The M9--M8 lag of 80ms is in practice imperceptible, and my own M4 is certainly no better than that (although more silent). I too do suspect that the demo camera in question had the 'discreet shutter mode' in operation, and that Aesop has confused the late re-cocking sound with the actual shutter release. And also, Aesop does seem incapable of understanding the answers he has been given. The old man from the Age of the M3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbuckley Posted October 5, 2009 Share #27 Posted October 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I must be living in a parallel universe. I could detect no shutter lag in my M8 compared to my M7, none in my M8.2 compared to my M8, and now that I have an M9, and have gotten in the habit of using the "soft" release, I've worried about it shooting, uh, prematurely, not the opposite. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 5, 2009 Share #28 Posted October 5, 2009 I have experienced this on 3 different M9's. It's just different. When you push the shutter its "ch...chunk." The M8.2 has the chchunk also, just spaced closer together and firing faster. Ron OK Ron, I would agree with the sound you are describing once the shutter is fired, almost as if the M9 shutter has further to travel... my initial impression is that there is also a difference in shutter response between M8.2 and M9. I've not noticed this before. Is this why we have "soft" mode? I will make some enquiries. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondeb Posted October 5, 2009 Share #29 Posted October 5, 2009 ... my initial impression is that there is also a difference in shutter response between M8.2 and M9. I've not noticed this before. Is this why we have "soft" mode? I will make some enquiries. Great. I look forward to hearing if this will be addressed. Best, Ron Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
swamiji Posted October 5, 2009 Share #30 Posted October 5, 2009 Correct me if I am wrong but I remember that during the after M9 announcement interview, Stefan Daniel said that the M8.2 and the M9 use the same shutter... the same as one of the R's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 5, 2009 Share #31 Posted October 5, 2009 Correct me if I am wrong but I remember that during the after M9 announcement interview, Stefan Daniel said that the M8.2 and the M9 use the same shutter... the same as one of the R's. Yes the R8. But what is missing, or I should say included, that wasn't there in the R8 shutter is the rewind and possibly the shutter locking device. Not really sure why there is a locking device on the M8/.2/9 and none on manual wind film cameras. So although the physical shutter may be the same the complete shutter system is not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheewai_m6 Posted October 6, 2009 Share #32 Posted October 6, 2009 take the lens off both m9 and the mechanic film. then press the shutter at the same time, and see who's shutter fires first. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rondeb Posted October 6, 2009 Share #33 Posted October 6, 2009 take the lens off both m9 and the mechanic film. then press the shutter at the same time, and see who's shutter fires first. M8.2 wins. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 6, 2009 Share #34 Posted October 6, 2009 Aesop must define what he means by "lag", so that he an get a definite answer. On an M8 shutter lag is practical 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garygsandhu Posted October 6, 2009 Share #35 Posted October 6, 2009 Shutter lag is well defined but poorly understood and people are easily confused: I re-iterate what I posted earlier: Don't expect a straight answer from here. I posed this question regarding the leica cm years ago and got a straight answer from Leica and will do the same. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 6, 2009 Share #36 Posted October 6, 2009 Shutter lag is well defined but poorly understood and people are easily confused: I re-iterate what I posted earlier: Don't expect a straight answer from here. I posed this question regarding the leica cm years ago and got a straight answer from Leica and will do the same. Would be interesting indeed. As posted above, i've measured 0.07 sec with the M8 but i did not test the discreet mode so far. Could be interesting to know if the shutter lag is the same in jpeg and raw mode as well. AFAIC i've got 0.05 sec in raw mode but only 0.02 sec in jpeg mode with my Epsons. FWIW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted October 6, 2009 Share #37 Posted October 6, 2009 Any SLR camera has of necessity a long shutter lag, because it has to get the mirror out of the way before the shutter starts rolling. The Nikon FM cameras were notorious for this; not only was there a lag of nearly a second, but also lots of movement during that time. If you put the camera in your open hand and released the shutter with a cable release, you could actually feel it jump! The F cameras jumped less simply because they were heavier. Bad engineering, in my opinion. Lars, I don't think you can mean the FM Nikons. Are you thinking of the early Nikkormats (e.g. the one with the leaf shutter)? I've just been listening to my FM2n alongside other cameras and it takes more like a hundred than a thousand milliseconds for the mirror to rise and the shutter to open. There's a little vibration from the mirror on the way up, but not nearly as much as on the way down after the exposure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpattinson Posted October 6, 2009 Share #38 Posted October 6, 2009 I agree. I'd argue that what is being discussed here is really the perception of lag, due to the different sound and feel of the digital M's motorised shutter mechanism. I've no doubt that true leg can be measured scientifically in milliseconds, and the M9 may or may not be slightly different than the M8 in this respect, but I doubt that it can be sensed by the photographer. I can recall having the problem of 'perceived lag' with a Konica Hexar RF when I was shooting one in parallel with my M7. I noticed that when shooting with the Hexar, I would often mistime shots and get the subject half walking into the frame. I realized that this was because I was associating some of the shutter recock noises with the instant of exposure - when in fact they were happening post exposure. Subconsciously I was taking this perceived lag into account and actually firing the shutter too early. I believe this was simply a result of me mentally mapping exposure instant to a specific noise, probably based on my prior experience with the M7. It wouldn't at all surprise me if someone coming straight to the M8/M9 from using a film M would have the same experience. I wonder if the OP actually observed timing difficulties in the photographs or just based his decision on the shutter sound? Another thing that could confuse the issue is that if one 'missed the moment' on a film M, by the time you got the film back it was well dissociated from the event of pressing the shutter. So it's quite possible that due to the immediate feedback that the M9 provides, the OP is just noticing missed timing that would otherwise have been overlooked. Combined with the different shutter sound - it would be very easy to mistakenly attribute this to shutter lag. I guess the engineering question can be measured by one of the technical guys, however the perception of lag is just as much a problem if (as in my case with the Hexar) you end up mistiming shots. I haven't had this problem with my M8 that I can recall, but then I've put around 40,000 shots through that so I'm probably more attuned to the M8 than my M7 nowdays. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulrikft Posted October 6, 2009 Share #39 Posted October 6, 2009 Lars, I don't think you can mean the FM Nikons. Are you thinking of the early Nikkormats (e.g. the one with the leaf shutter)? I've just been listening to my FM2n alongside other cameras and it takes more like a hundred than a thousand milliseconds for the mirror to rise and the shutter to open. There's a little vibration from the mirror on the way up, but not nearly as much as on the way down after the exposure. Agreed, I have a fm here, and it is nowhere close to a second. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elansprint72 Posted October 6, 2009 Share #40 Posted October 6, 2009 Any SLR camera has of necessity a long shutter lag, because it has to get the mirror out of the way before the shutter starts rolling. The Nikon FM cameras were notorious for this; not only was there a lag of nearly a second, but also lots of movement during that time. If you put the camera in your open hand and released the shutter with a cable release, you could actually feel it jump! The F cameras jumped less simply because they were heavier. Bad engineering, in my opinion. The old man from the Age of the M3 You are clearly not familiar with the Nikon D700. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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