giordano Posted December 12, 2009 Share #161 Posted December 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Any shutterlag there might be - I would call it similar or slightly less than the M8- is utterly irrelevant in any conceivable form of photography. If this bothers you, you are photographing rifle bullets penetrating lightbulbs. Dogmatic overstatement here, I'm afraid. In this photograph the lady cyclist would have been travelling at 10-15 km/hr and the motor-cyclist at 45-50 km/hr, say a combined speed of 60 km/hr or about 17 metres per second, or a metre every 60 milliseconds. The photograph isn't exactly as I intended it: the motorcyclist is 60 or 80 cm too far to the left. This means that the shutter fired about 40 milliseconds later than I wanted it to. Yes, it's my fault for not having made the correct allowance for the M6's shutter lag. What I'm trying to demonstrate is: Even quite ordinary kinds of "action" or "decisive moment" photography can require very precise timing... ...timing so precise that a difference of even 40 milliseconds in shutter lag between cameras is significant (never mind the 150 ms difference between, say, an M6 and a Bronica S2). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 12, 2009 Posted December 12, 2009 Hi giordano, Take a look here M9 shutter lag?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted December 12, 2009 Share #162 Posted December 12, 2009 I would dream of a $8K DRF as fast as a Canonet. Asking too much? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted December 12, 2009 Share #163 Posted December 12, 2009 I have shot the M4, M6 (classic), the M6 (updated) for a while until the "backwards" dial drove me nuts, and the M8 and M9. I shoot a lot of dance (movement) and have never noticed any difference in lag among these cameras. I also have a Rollei-35, and it's lag is about the same as well. Here are some shots from last weekend with the M9 -- I just don't think about the lag, tho. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/109150-gave-myself-test-m9-75-lux.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted December 12, 2009 Share #164 Posted December 12, 2009 I have shot the M4, M6 (classic), the M6 (updated) for a while until the "backwards" dial drove me nuts, and the M8 and M9. I shoot a lot of dance (movement) and have never noticed any difference in lag among these cameras. You should probably tell Stefan Daniel from Leica because he thinks there is one... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted December 12, 2009 Share #165 Posted December 12, 2009 You should probably tell Stefan Daniel from Leica because he thinks there is one... He doesn't take my pictures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 12, 2009 Share #166 Posted December 12, 2009 Jaap, you are certainly an experienced photographer and a devoted Leica user, but your tendency to flatly deny any evidence that the digital Leicas are anything less than perfect is sometimes simply a bit too much. We had this discussion about the relevance of the shutter lag before. A crowded scene where lots of subjects move quickly, especially some that are very near to your camera, is something where Ms typically excel - and in these cases a tenth of a second does make a difference. I can easily point out several famous photographs taken with Leicas which would look significantly different had they been taken 0.1 seconds later. Maybe it doesn't matter for the pictures you take, but for some it might. Nikon has managed to get the time for the sensor refresh down to a third of what Leica currently needs. I'm sure Leica is working on this, too. And if they'll eventually release an M9.2 or M10 which has a shutter lag of 25ms instead of 100ms, you'll buy it and tell us how much better it is than the M9 (like you're now telling us how much better the M9 is than the M8). Until then you'll defend your M9 like a lion mother defends her babies (like you previously defended the M8)... Don't get me wrong. I have an M8.2 and there's nothing wrong with it, I like it and wouldn't want to have a Japanese dSLR instead. And I might even buy the M9 in the future. That doesn't prevent me from thinking about how these cameras could be improved, though. I am not denying or defending anything here - read the first words of my post, or rather read my post. I am just questioning the practical implications of a lag in this order for practical everyday photography. Given the normal reaction time of any human being to optical input these times shrink into irrelevancy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted December 13, 2009 Share #167 Posted December 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am just questioning the practical implications of a lag in this order for practical everyday photography. Given the normal reaction time of any human being to optical input these times shrink into irrelevancy. Well, you thought that this was relevant (at least worth a thread) a few months ago and you were sure that the M8's shutter lag was "by far" less than 80ms (which turns out to be the correct value), so at that time you probably thought you could perceive 80ms? If all of this is totally irrelevant, why does Nikon work so hard to have an extremely short shutter lag on their pro models although some of their semi-pro models are already faster than the M8? Why does Leica list a short shutter lag as one of the "core values of the Leica M system" (in a text that was written before the M8 came into existence)? And why do experts like Phil Askey say that one of the advantages of rangefinders over SLRs is that they have a shorter shutter lag? I've seen praises for the extreme short shutter lag of the analog Ms more often than I can remember. That was cool and something to boast about as long as SLRs were slower. Now, in the digital world, there are some SLRs that are actually faster than the (digital) M and suddenly it doesn't matter anymore? Hmm... There's a rabid detractor of the M8 in the German forum. Most of what he writes is nonsense or cynical or both, but he coined the sentence "Was Leica nicht kann, braucht man nicht." (In English that would be something like "If Leica can't do it, you don't need it.") I'm afraid there's some truth in it. Lots of people here like their Leicas so much that they simply can't imagine that something about them could be improved. Anyway, I think I've said enough about this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.M Posted December 13, 2009 Share #168 Posted December 13, 2009 80 ms , couldn't believe it first . I think I 'll keep using my Nikon D3 and Leica M6 . Small lag is important to me for dance and moving objects . Etienne Michiels Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted December 13, 2009 Share #169 Posted December 13, 2009 So intrigued was I that I got my bodies out and pressed the shutters until I was convinced that the M9 does indeed have a shutter lag compared to my film Leica's. I will compensate by bringing forward my anticipation by 80ms. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 13, 2009 Share #170 Posted December 13, 2009 80 ms , couldn't believe it first . I think I 'll keep using my Nikon D3 and Leica M6 . Small lag is important to me for dance and moving objects... The D3's shutter lag is only 41ms but its 74ms mirror black-out must be compared to the 0ms of the M9 and other rangefinders to be fair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted December 13, 2009 Share #171 Posted December 13, 2009 I'm amazed this has not been noted more by M9 users. Are you shooting with the M9? I would agree the "lag" is nearly non-existent on the M8.2, but it is definitely there in the M9. Speak up M9'ers. -Ron Okay. I am speaking up. No discernable shutter lag to me. I don't like the recocking and use discreet most of the time. But recocking has zero to do with "shutter lag". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted December 13, 2009 Share #172 Posted December 13, 2009 The D3's shutter lag is only 41ms but its 74ms mirror black-out must be compared to the 0ms of the M9 and other rangefinders to be fair. Not in the context discussed here - assuming that the 74ms mirror black-out occurs after the shot has been taken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted December 13, 2009 Share #173 Posted December 13, 2009 When I was first learning to use an SLR (Note: camera, not rifle.), I was taught to remember that "If you saw it, you missed it.". So learning to anticipate the moment became second nature. Although that was in the days when very few cameras contained so much as a battery, it sounds as though that advice is now equally valid for any digital camera, including M cameras. As far as anticipating is concerned anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikkor AIS Posted December 13, 2009 Share #174 Posted December 13, 2009 Interesting discussion. Im sure one who just bought a $7,000 digital camera. likes to have there noses rubbed in the fact the shutter lag is lame compared to a 1954 M3. Shutter lag, shutter lag shutter lag:p. In many ways technology takes two steps back for everyone gained. And this is the case for the shutter lag in the M9. And burying your head in the sand won't make the shutter lag get any better. It must be a kick in throat to loyal lecia user's that the D3 kicks the M9 but in the this department. Another point that is always missed when the Nikon D3 is mentioned is that Nikon D3 can be used in Live view mode which mean that the mirror is already up. Which to my line of thinking shortens the shutter lag even more. Another thing is that when in DX mode the D3 will shoot 11FPS not 9. Perhaps not relevant to the shutter lag of the M9 but true none the same. And I can tell you from personal experience and over 20 years of shooting sports, people, and things that not even 11fps is capable of getting the "decisive moment" like a single frame shot by a photographer and a camera(any camera) who can accurately anticipate with the camera in there hand. There is only one decisive moment in any space in time. You cant blame folks for wanting the ultimate tool to get that moment. Know your equipment and what ever camera is up to your eye is that camera. Gregory SmugMug Photo & Video Sharing. You look better here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted December 13, 2009 Share #175 Posted December 13, 2009 Interesting discussion. Im sure one who just bought a $7,000 digital camera. likes to have there noses rubbed in the fact the shutter lag is lame compared to a 1954 M3. Shutter lag, shutter lag shutter lag:p. In many ways technology takes two steps back for everyone gained. And this is the case for the shutter lag in the M9. And burying your head in the sand won't make the shutter lag get any better. It must be a kick in throat to loyal lecia user's that the D3 kicks the M9 but in the this department. Another point that is always missed when the Nikon D3 is mentioned is that Nikon D3 can be used in Live view mode which mean that the mirror is already up. Which to my line of thinking shortens the shutter lag even more. Another thing is that when in DX mode the D3 will shoot 11FPS not 9. Perhaps not relevant to the shutter lag of the M9 but true none the same. And I can tell you from personal experience and over 20 years of shooting sports, people, and things that not even 11fps is capable of getting the "decisive moment" like a single frame shot by a photographer and a camera(any camera) who can accurately anticipate with the camera in there hand. There is only one decisive moment in any space in time. You cant blame folks for wanting the ultimate tool to get that moment. Know your equipment and what ever camera is up to your eye is that camera. Gregory SmugMug Photo & Video Sharing. You look better here. The Nikon D3 is a wonderful camera. But did you know that the Panasonic G1 (sold at a fraction of the price) has a higher resolution sensor than the D3, even when tested with a sub-specification lens (tested by Amateur Photographer 11th April 09)? Thats pretty poor don't you think? The moral is that its swings and roundabouts, some you win some you lose, easy come easy go. If you continue to blather about one camera compared to another sooner or later some specification of other will come round and bite you in the ass because you aren't comparing like for like. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted December 13, 2009 Share #176 Posted December 13, 2009 Hey guys, get up from your chairs and go take some photographs! Let's see if they are any good or whether they were ruined by shutter lag. I suspect not. I find this entire thread to be hilarious. I don't notice a lag. Maybe its there. Maybe not. I like using the camera and taking photographs more than trying to figure out whether there is an 80ms lag and if so whether it has an impact on taking photographs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikkor AIS Posted December 13, 2009 Share #177 Posted December 13, 2009 I think we where discussing shutter lag. Sensor resolution is another discussion. Blather on? I guess some of my points stuck a nerve. The things is for years I heard how much better the Lecia's where to my primitive Nikon to capturing the decisive moment:rolleyes:. And in regards to the M3 it was true, but as far as the M9 shutter lag, well it's not really anything to brag about it. Like I said two steps forward one back. Gregory Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iShutterbug Posted December 13, 2009 Share #178 Posted December 13, 2009 I think anticipation is part and parcel of photography. You take the picture (snap the shutter) and can't wait to see how it turns out. Whether on the drug store counter, on the back of the camera, or in the dark room. If you mostly shoot still subjects then shutter lag is not important. Shoot moving subjects and your priorities change. I started out fifty years ago with a Leica IIIf as a cub photojournalist and sports photographer. I was very good at capturing the "definitive moment" and the pictures that survive today attest to that. I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging, it's just that if you survived and prospered in those fields that meant that you could instinctively do it--anticipate your subject's position and expression coupled with the milliseconds required for your finger to press that shutter button. I had never heard of such a thing as 'shutter lag', I just did it. That lasted about ten years and I got into other careers and things and didn't do any photography. Then around fifteen years ago I had some time and extra bucks and decided to get a new camera, an SLR. So I got the brand that was the big nemesis of Leica back in my day, the Nikon, just to see what it was all about. I got a 6006, then a 8008, took some pictures, vacation pictures, disappointed, not sharp enough, got new lenses, disappointed, spent hours inspecting negs under the reading light with loupe to see how sharp they were compared to drugstore prints I was getting, sold everything and got a Canon somethingorother, same thing, worse flash shots, what was it about my photography the once celebrated one that to me wasn't as good as it used to be? My timing was off, I was catching things a moment too late. I knew they were not sharp as I required, I knew the photofinishing was hit or miss, I realized that now I was shooting color (prints) and not the b&w I had been used to and that's probably a factor in sharpness, but I was still perplexed, why aren't my pictures sharp? I bought a Canon RT, their semi-pro SLR with the stationary mirror that does't swing up and cause that shake, that took care of most of my problem, also I realized I held the camera so loose that it was partly a case of operator-shake as well. So I finally figured out my problems vis a vis modern photography and cameras. Then came along digital! I had all that to figure out along with the long mirror swings and tons of shutter lag (oh, I can't wait until Canon does a digital RT!). I recently bought a 5DmkII and I rarely use it as it has such a noticable mirror swing and shutter lag and black out! I knew it the very first time I clicked the shutter, it was worse than the 5D. So, yes, Leica, my IIIf spoiled me, and as some members here may know, last year I bought a lot of classic screwmount Leica bodies and lenses and had them CLAd and went out and shot a lot of film and had a nostalgic good time. I got my "Mojo" back, my timing, sharpness at low ASA and slow shutter speeds. Now, I have so many rolls it will take many years for me to scan the keepers and do something with them, that will be fun but I'll wait until I'm old and slowed down to do that. For my Leica friends who've been kind enough to've read this far, I'll get to the point of this post: I will never get a camera that has a longish shutter lag, I don't care the proud badge. My photography, my sanity, is too important to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted December 13, 2009 Share #179 Posted December 13, 2009 I think we where discussing shutter lag. Sensor resolution is another discussion. Blather on? I guess some of my points stuck a nerve. The things is for years I heard how much better the Lecia's where to my primitive Nikon to capturing the decisive moment:rolleyes:. And in regards to the M3 it was true, but as far as the M9 shutter lag, well it's not really anything to brag about it. Like I said two steps forward one back. Gregory We are discussing shutter lag. But only on a realistic level if comparing like for like. How long for instance will the Nikon D3 shutter remain inactive if the street shooting photographer has scared off all his prey by carrying around a large DSLR? So shutter lag is irrelevant if you can't make an exposure in the first place. Likewise the M9 is rubbish at telephoto sports action, so if you are using an M9 for telephoto action shots you are using the wrong camera and it doesn't matter how slow the shutter release is. They are two very different cameras, or hadn't you noticed? I'd be willing to bet a dexterous individual could take the lens cap off a pinhole camera as fast as both D3 and M9 can open the shutter, but what does that prove, other than it is yet another camera specification used without regard to context? Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryk34 Posted December 13, 2009 Share #180 Posted December 13, 2009 I don't quite get a discussion of shutte lag based on how the camera sounds or seems to work. Has anyone who thinks there is one actually tried testing the shutter lag in practice? You don't have to wait for the film to be developed to find out. The old joke about p&s digital cameras shooting the horse's ass when trying to photograph its head applies here. My understanding is that Reid acutally took photos of a stopwatch. Anyone can do something similar. Have someone simply touch their nose with their finger and then withdraw it as fast as they can. Try to capture the finger while it's still on the nose. Isn't this what you want to do with the camera anyway? To be fair, do the same test with your M6 or M7 and then develop the film. There's no autofocus to slow down the shutter, so what does anyone think is responsible for the shutter lag? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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