Rolo Posted October 30, 2008 Share #281 Posted October 30, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) used, I guess, for £1750-ish (and only getting lower). M8.2 is £3900 Interesting emotions on that. If that was comparative pricing for a film M, the advice, without reservation, would be to buy good condition used. The used M8 stock generally appears to be in excellent condition and little used. But, the recommendation to buy used is not strong here and without a warranty, the advice is don't buy used on the assumption that only problem cameras were being traded. With a higher number of used M8's coming on stream, the % of cameras with issues must be dropping and the chances of a perfect body rising. ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 30, 2008 Posted October 30, 2008 Hi Rolo, Take a look here Hot Air and Broken Promises. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Shootist Posted October 30, 2008 Share #282 Posted October 30, 2008 Interesting emotions on that. If that was comparative pricing for a film M, the advice, without reservation, would be to buy good condition used. The used M8 stock generally appears to be in excellent condition and little used. But, the recommendation to buy used is not strong here and without a warranty, the advice is don't buy used on the assumption that only problem cameras were being traded. With a higher number of used M8's coming on stream, the % of cameras with issues must be dropping and the chances of a perfect body rising. ? If I was to buy used I would send it in for the upgrades. That way the camera get registered to you and you get a 1 year warranty with it. But the used price would need to reflect the cost of the upgrades. Otherwise I'd buy new. Used camera would need to be bought @ or below $3000. Full upgrades $?1700? making the total with 1 year warranty around $4700. But then you don't need to do all the upgrades to get the warranty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 30, 2008 Share #283 Posted October 30, 2008 Posted by Delander: This thread does seem to have run its course and I am one of those who is disappointed about the upgrade programme. So went out to take a couple of autumn colour type photos. See attached, I know I am not supposed to post here but nobody much seems to go over to the photoforums from here. Anyway, I dont seem to be able to get similar colours from my Canon stuff, just does not seem to have the depth. Lots of blown out direct Sun highlights in this but I'm not worried about that. Shot at 320 iso, processed in C1v4, 50 lux asph at f5.6. Beginning to really love that lens. I'll tell you this shot easily goes to 13x19 and I am sure would be great at even A2. And a bonus, I hid in the shadows of the towpath and those swans did not hear the shutter of my old M8, and they have excellent hearing! (that last bit is true but I'm not suggesting anything for anyone to get uptight about). Just so that we dont lose sight of what the camera can achieve. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/nature-wildlife/67734-swanning.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted October 30, 2008 Share #284 Posted October 30, 2008 Andy Thanks for posting that, I had gotten the email containing that post but it wasn't on the forum. What gets me is all the people that state they are upset/disappointed/whatever with the upgrade program. Fine don't do any of the upgrades. Originally Leica also stated that they wouldn't be coming out with a new model M8 either. If you believed that along with that the original M8 would be fully upgradeable to whatever was added to whatever new model that may come out in the future I have a BRIDGE I would like to sell you. PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD. It is just a bunch of &*^%$# Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagarwal Posted October 30, 2008 Share #285 Posted October 30, 2008 Originally Leica also stated that they wouldn't be coming out with a new model M8 either. If you believed that along with that the original M8 would be fully upgradeable to whatever was added to whatever new model that may come out in the future I have a BRIDGE I would like to sell you. From what I understand, the main point of discontent is Leica's decision to not provide the delayed shutter re-cock to M8 users - not because it is technically impossible (again from what I've come to understand, it's a firmware change, not a hardware change), but because Leica thinks it will cannibalize on M8.2 sales. Perhaps Leica expects to see droves of M8 users immediately go out and buy the M8.2 because they just can't live without that feature. In which case, you could sell that bridge to Leica instead. As for the fine folks who have kindly and not-so-kindly suggested the "whiners" to get over it and get on with life and appreciate the M8's excellent qualities, it's not clear what you expect unhappy customers to do (apart from getting over it, of course). Isn't this forum meant for discussing all things Leica, good and bad? Those who are not unhappy with Leica's decision are free to do what they like with their time - perhaps go worry or whine about something else on some other forum elsewhere. It appears to be the nature of forums to contain more feedback posts from dissatisfied customers rather than from happy ones - perhaps the aforementioned fine folks could get over that fact and accept all the whining? Was there similar animosity towards negative feedback back when many early adopters were complaining about magenta blacks? Isn't this all feedback to Leica, whether about a perceived defect of the camera or a policy that some of us find ill-considered? While I don't pretend to know the exact motive behind the creation of this thread, I was expecting to get an idea of the extent of dissatisfaction with Leica's decision to not offer the delayed shutter re-cock upgrade - if nothing else, at least to get an idea of what the cause for denial is and perhaps to see what workarounds there may be. However, many of the posts here seem to be from people who are unhappy about the existence of the thread itself. Weird. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted October 30, 2008 Share #286 Posted October 30, 2008 Th M8 would be good if: 1) if no problems with FW upgrades 2) ISO 1250 and 2500 on same level as old Canon 5D (not to mention 5DM2) 3) shutter would be really same noise level and sound as MP (even the M8-2 shutter is useless compared to the MP one) 4) Leica would have a service which at least allows to repair (replace) broken cameras within 5-10 days. Even living in Austria, which is next to Germany, it takes now more than 6 weeks to repair my broken M8 (after FW update). Normally shipping with DHL takes less than 24 hours. 5) if Leica would finally build and offer real professional services (as they will have to show for their S-System anyway). So far they are not doing good, they SUCK ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakku Posted October 30, 2008 Share #287 Posted October 30, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) While I don't pretend to know the exact motive behind the creation of this thread, I was expecting to get an idea of the extent of dissatisfaction with Leica's decision to not offer the delayed shutter re-cock upgrade - if nothing else, at least to get an idea of what the cause for denial is and perhaps to see what workarounds there may be. However, many of the posts here seem to be from people who are unhappy about the existence of the thread itself. Weird. As Leica's Stefan Daniel outlined above in this thread (#106), the delayed shutter re-cocking ('discreet mode') is a software and not a hardware feature. Consequently, it is not included in the shutter (hardware) upgrading. It is covered by firmware modification. However, Stefan also said that they will reserve this firmware update for M8.2 but will exclude all M8 from this improvement barely for marketing reasons. This is meant to justify the higher price of the M8.2 and maybe create more sales. I doubt the logic of this marketing attitude. IMHO, a reasonable customer will buy an M8.2 if he wants or needs the functionality in total , including the new hardware and software items, e. g. revised framelines, soft but slower shutter, saphire glass, snap-shot mode etc.) and not refrain from purchasing just because the M8 might be using the same software. If their reasoning was sound, Leica might as well have blocked latest firmware improvements, such as SDHC capability, Auto ISO, for M8 owners (some of which even paid the same price as the M8.2 is now selling for). I'm glad they didn't and do hope they'll soon drop that unfair marketing idea. I wonder what the next firmware version will bring re shutter management (see post #250 above). Horst Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share #288 Posted October 31, 2008 I too was surprised that Auto-ISO made it into the M8 because it just the sort of function which could have been used to differentiate the M8.2, more so than discreet mode. I'm pleased it's there. If you look at the recent firmware enhancements - AWB, SDHC, Auto-ISO, Discreet Mode, Snap-Shot Mode, EV nudge - it's interesting to see that it's the last three that Leica think set the M8.2 apart and justify the expense over a depreciated M8 or M8u. It scares me that someone in Solms looked at the development effort of Snap-Shot mode with all the graphics and justified it based on increased revenue. How many more cameras will we sell because it's in there? Not many from this forum would be my guess though I suppose some rich people waiting for their flight in Dubai (no slight intended) might fall for it, only to be frustrated when they can't find how to switch on movie-mode. I think the M8 is a done deal now and future firmware changes may seek to further distance the M8.2 from the M8 and so encourage us to pass our M8s down the food chain, take the depreciation hit and buy the mid-life makeover camera. Not me. I need them to offer me something of real substance, something which moves the game forwards. Better high ISO, bigger sensor, faster processor, higher resolution display, new viewfinder/rangefinder design, more accurate focussing, better eye comfort. And no Snap-Shot mode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 3, 2008 Share #289 Posted November 3, 2008 A fair summary, Mark. I guess we are both waiting for the M9 or even M10... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 3, 2008 Share #290 Posted November 3, 2008 Th M8 would be good if: 1) if no problems with FW upgrades 2) ISO 1250 and 2500 on same level as old Canon 5D (not to mention 5DM2) 3) shutter would be really same noise level and sound as MP (even the M8-2 shutter is useless compared to the MP one) 4) Leica would have a service which at least allows to repair (replace) broken cameras within 5-10 days. Even living in Austria, which is next to Germany, it takes now more than 6 weeks to repair my broken M8 (after FW update). Normally shipping with DHL takes less than 24 hours. 5) if Leica would finally build and offer real professional services (as they will have to show for their S-System anyway). So far they are not doing good, they SUCK ! 1. Problems with FW upgrades are very few and far betwenn 2, Yes 3.A matter of taste 4. Holland must be more close to Solms than Austria. Slowest turnaround for service for me was 2 weeks 5. They do: see the website- two days turnaround. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thompsonkirk Posted November 3, 2008 Share #291 Posted November 3, 2008 Dear Mr. Norton, Thank you for your straightforward mail. As announced in my previous mail to you, we had an internal discussion whether the discreet mode should be integrated into the upgrade service or not. As a manufacturer with a P&L responsibility, we have to keep the balance between serving our customers by retrofitting existing products in the market and selling new products. For this reason, the discreet mode will stay reserved for the M8.2, as it is our flagship and it also has a significantly higher price than the M8. I kindly ask you for you understanding regarding this decision and hope that it will not affect your enthusiasm for Leica. Best regards Stefan Daniel I hadn't even looked at this thread; it isn't the kind I read. But I became curious why it had gone on so long & took a peek. Now I find myself compelled to contribute, though quite belatedly. What surprised me was the reference to Stefan Daniel's post #106. I realized I hadn't taken seriously the phrase "broken promises" in the title of the thread. A previous Leica announcement made it 100% clear that Leica was committed to making all upgrades - especially firmware upgrades - that would be compatible with the M8 available to its owners. Following that announcement I bought a second one. Am I mistaken in reading Mr. Daniel's post as a forthright reversal of the announced upgrade policy? Did i miss something in the fine print? I saw a couple of polite posts that said in effect that "it's OK, Mr. Daniel, we understand you have to do this to sell M8.2s." On the contrary: It is not OK. Even if Mr. Lee 'went rogue' about this & other issues, the announcement to which I referred was issued under Leica auspices to owners who were encouraged to regard the camera as upgradeable as far as was electronically & mechanically feasible. There was no ambiguity about this, none whatsoever - & no qualification that Leica reserved the right to withhold upgrades. Withholding a firmware upgrade seems to me to be particularly unconscionable, in light of the previous announcement. The upgrades are themselves quite expensive, & surely pay for themselves. And I doubt there's more risk of losing M8.2 sales than of losing another measure of M8 customer confidence - which has not been running high. Nevertheless, whichever way these economic issues turn, it's clear that the 'internal discussion' about the discreet mode upgrade did not adequately weigh ethical responsibility. I have no concluding word except "appalled." I'm sorry to lengthen a beaten-to-death thread, but on finally realizing the situation I have no intention of letting an unethical reversal of policy pass by. It's a terrible affront to 'Leica loyalty.' Kirk Thompson Leica user since 1972 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drstefanlenz Posted November 3, 2008 Share #292 Posted November 3, 2008 i just bought a 100 year "birthday" book on cartier-bresson, about his life and work, his way to the leica, the discrete way of taking picture unnoticed and felt anger coming up. i am really greatfully disappointed of not having the chance to upgrade my "old" m8! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share #293 Posted November 3, 2008 Kirk and Stefan, thank you for participating. I started the thread because of Leica's rank hypocrisy in announcing the upgrade program and then failing to deliver, not for some valid hardware reason but because they wish to deny a simple firmware change to the people who have kept the company afloat for the last two years. Leica have short-changed their loyal users and that in my book is unforgiveable. I've completely reverse engineered the shutter controller and they would likely choke on their Bratwurst if they saw the 30+ wires coming out of the hole where the lens sensor should be... My micro emulates the shutter controller so that the camera thinks it has got a text book shutter wind (it's easily fooled); the micro remembers the camera has asked for the shutter wind and duly obliges when the shutter release is released. The Leica M8 was orignally billed as a "true Leica M". It's nothing of the sort because the noisy shutter prevents just the sort of discreet photography we all admire Cartier Bresson for pioneering. So, I have delayed wind (or will when I repackage everything) but quietening the shutter is proving difficult. It remains a noisy old thing. Bill will doubtless ask why I have gone to these lengths. The answer is because I can. As William Congreve might have opined on this thread, "Hell hath no fury like an engineer scorned..." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
canlogic Posted November 3, 2008 Share #294 Posted November 3, 2008 The Leica M8 was orignally billed as a "true Leica M". It's nothing of the sort because the noisy shutter prevents just the sort of discreet photography we all admire Cartier Bresson for pioneering..." Well I think we all knew what we had when we bought them, I assume most people tried one before buying (for the sound). Although there have been lots of other problems. I do agree though that they made a promis and should either live up to it or send out a retraction to the announcement. I have written them stateing this. As it stands I will not get an 8.2 and will delay getting the upgrades until that time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted November 3, 2008 Share #295 Posted November 3, 2008 Bill will doubtless ask why I have gone to these lengths. No, Mark, you flatter yourself. I really don't care how you choose to fill your days when you could have been out enjoying yourself using your equipment instead of going to obsessive lengths to "prove" your "point". Clearly you are excited by the prospect of flagellation, necrophilia and bestiality but personally I think you are flogging a dead horse. You seem hell-bent on conducting a personal, vindictive and vituperative vendetta against Leica and rabble-rousing as you do so. I can only wonder at your motivation - it seems to be to drive the company to the wall with your revisionist , pejorative and highly personal interpretations of "promises" made and "broken". Marketing claims have been made. Marketing decisions have been made. You might not like them, but holding your breath and stamping your feet like Violet Elisabeth Bott is pretty pointless. Move on, eh? Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted November 3, 2008 Share #296 Posted November 3, 2008 Oh boy! Here we go! ...vindictive and vituperative vendetta... That phrase might be marketable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share #297 Posted November 3, 2008 No, Bill, I simply take what Leica promoted at face value and find they have failed me. Opinion is divided on this thread and mine differs from yours but I welcome your input nonetheless. Pity you couldn't think of a synonym for "personal" beginning with "v" though. Perhaps you should have your own column in Private Eye, "Bill's Bluster"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakku Posted November 3, 2008 Share #298 Posted November 3, 2008 A previous Leica announcement made it 100% clear that Leica was committed to making all upgrades - especially firmware upgrades - that would be compatible with the M8 available to its owners. Following that announcement I bought a second one. Am I mistaken in reading Mr. Daniel's post as a forthright reversal of the announced upgrade policy? Did i miss something in the fine print? . . . . . . . . I have no concluding word except "appalled." I'm sorry to lengthen a beaten-to-death thread, but on finally realizing the situation I have no intention of letting an unethical reversal of policy pass by. It's a terrible affront to 'Leica loyalty.' UNQUOTE It is, indeed. Particularly the 'style' and motivation of the apparent policy swing - i. e. exempting some enhancement(s) from firmware updates - which contradicts announcements and commitments made before. Still in LFI 3/08 Dr. Kaufmann confirmed the product philosophy behind the M8 to be 'continuity' (reliability, trustworthiness - "Beständigkeit") and continuous improvements ("Optimierungen") to be made as technically feasable (!). Under the then existing marketing policy that statement could only mean that enhancements would be made available to all M8 owners (M8 - an investment into the future - continous upgrades and free firmware updates provided). Now, Stefan Daniels' post can be interpreted as that he tells those 20 - 30,000 early M8 customers (and those who may still buy one) "We know that shutter noise was one of the most disturbing shortcomings of the M8. We have finally fixed it in the software as it should have been from the beginning. It's available - but, sorry, not for you!. It is technically feasable, however, our P&L sheet is more important than customer satisfaction". And our reputation, imho. The Moor has done his duty. The Moor can go. Horst Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share #299 Posted November 3, 2008 That's a thought, I must look out that LFI article. Thanks Horst. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 3, 2008 Share #300 Posted November 3, 2008 Why not raise a class action suit? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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