Hot Air and Broken Promises

[charlesphoto99]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Okay, being an M8 owner here is what I've been through the past year and a half:

 

First M8 a lemon right out of the box: badly adjusted rangefinder, fairly constant need for battery resets, and line in the sensor.

 

Takes Leica NJ almost three weeks to replace (and they replace with a silver even though original was black but It works and I actually fall for the silver so I keep).

 

Code a 28mm with a 24 bayonet after almost 8 weeks. Takes another two to correct that mistake.

 

Takes almost 5 months to get my free filters - forced to buy in the meantime.

 

Replacement M8 develops sticky framelines - takes almost 8 weeks to fix (has to go back to Solms). Guess what - now has sticky framelines again. Waiting for upgrade slot to fix. Also needs occasional battery resets. Still don't totally trust.

 

So it's been a rocky road love/hate relationship with this camera and company. All said and done though I was going to leave it at home for an upcoming week in Paris (I have about six pro cameras to choose from) but it's coming with me after all because the file quality is great and I can fit it and four lenses, spare batteries, an SF20 flash, spare cards and a map and menu reader all in a small Hadley bag. Comfy for 12 hour strolls. And if it goes down I'll have an M7 with me just in case (film is easy to come by in Paris)

 

The point of this is that I think I have the right to both "whine" and hail the M8. Yes, non-users/owners also have the right to voice their opinion but beware it may be taken with a grain of salt by those who have truly weathered the ins and outs of adopting this camera. I remember when people were first having focus problems with the M8 and amateur users on here were telling seasoned M pros that it was probably their eyesight or all in their head. Well we know now that it was actually problems at the factory.

 

I make my living with photography so I take my gear seriously. Leica need to realize this. Yes, they are the only game in town when it comes to digital rangefinders. But does that give them license to dick around (both with the customer and the product)? I don't know. All I know is that instead of buying a second M8 my money went to Nikon. And my D3 has worked flawlessly out of the box and I imagine it will continue to do so without numerous extended holidays back to the homeland. Do I like the Nikon as much? No. But do I trust it more? Yes. And in my book trust always trumps desire esp when it comes to fulfilling the needs of paying clients. And I am one of Leica's paying clients....

[photolandscape]

Okay, being an M8 owner here is what I've been through the past year and a half:

 

First M8 a lemon right out of the box: badly adjusted rangefinder, fairly constant need for battery resets, and line in the sensor.

 

Takes Leica NJ almost three weeks to replace (and they replace with a silver even though original was black but It works and I actually fall for the silver so I keep).

 

Code a 28mm with a 24 bayonet after almost 8 weeks. Takes another two to correct that mistake.

 

Takes almost 5 months to get my free filters - forced to buy in the meantime.

 

Replacement M8 develops sticky framelines - takes almost 8 weeks to fix (has to go back to Solms). Guess what - now has sticky framelines again. Waiting for upgrade slot to fix. Also needs occasional battery resets. Still don't totally trust.

 

So it's been a rocky road love/hate relationship with this camera and company. All said and done though I was going to leave it at home for an upcoming week in Paris (I have about six pro cameras to choose from) but it's coming with me after all because the file quality is great and I can fit it and four lenses, spare batteries, an SF20 flash, spare cards and a map and menu reader all in a small Hadley bag. Comfy for 12 hour strolls. And if it goes down I'll have an M7 with me just in case (film is easy to come by in Paris)

 

The point of this is that I think I have the right to both "whine" and hail the M8. Yes, non-users/owners also have the right to voice their opinion but beware it may be taken with a grain of salt by those who have truly weathered the ins and outs of adopting this camera. I remember when people were first having focus problems with the M8 and amateur users on here were telling seasoned M pros that it was probably their eyesight or all in their head. Well we know now that it was actually problems at the factory.

 

I make my living with photography so I take my gear seriously. Leica need to realize this. Yes, they are the only game in town when it comes to digital rangefinders. But does that give them license to dick around (both with the customer and the product)? I don't know. All I know is that instead of buying a second M8 my money went to Nikon. And my D3 has worked flawlessly out of the box and I imagine it will continue to do so without numerous extended holidays back to the homeland. Do I like the Nikon as much? No. But do I trust it more? Yes. And in my book trust always trumps desire esp when it comes to fulfilling the needs of paying clients. And I am one of Leica's paying clients....

 

This is one of the best and most balanced assessments yet of life with the Leica M8. Pretty much matches my experience, the good and the not-so-good.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[ptomsu]

Okay, being an M8 owner here is what I've been through the past year and a half:

 

First M8 a lemon right out of the box: badly adjusted rangefinder, fairly constant need for battery resets, and line in the sensor.

 

Takes Leica NJ almost three weeks to replace (and they replace with a silver even though original was black but It works and I actually fall for the silver so I keep).

 

Code a 28mm with a 24 bayonet after almost 8 weeks. Takes another two to correct that mistake.

 

Takes almost 5 months to get my free filters - forced to buy in the meantime.

 

Replacement M8 develops sticky framelines - takes almost 8 weeks to fix (has to go back to Solms). Guess what - now has sticky framelines again. Waiting for upgrade slot to fix. Also needs occasional battery resets. Still don't totally trust.

 

So it's been a rocky road love/hate relationship with this camera and company. All said and done though I was going to leave it at home for an upcoming week in Paris (I have about six pro cameras to choose from) but it's coming with me after all because the file quality is great and I can fit it and four lenses, spare batteries, an SF20 flash, spare cards and a map and menu reader all in a small Hadley bag. Comfy for 12 hour strolls. And if it goes down I'll have an M7 with me just in case (film is easy to come by in Paris)

 

The point of this is that I think I have the right to both "whine" and hail the M8. Yes, non-users/owners also have the right to voice their opinion but beware it may be taken with a grain of salt by those who have truly weathered the ins and outs of adopting this camera. I remember when people were first having focus problems with the M8 and amateur users on here were telling seasoned M pros that it was probably their eyesight or all in their head. Well we know now that it was actually problems at the factory.

 

I make my living with photography so I take my gear seriously. Leica need to realize this. Yes, they are the only game in town when it comes to digital rangefinders. But does that give them license to dick around (both with the customer and the product)? I don't know. All I know is that instead of buying a second M8 my money went to Nikon. And my D3 has worked flawlessly out of the box and I imagine it will continue to do so without numerous extended holidays back to the homeland. Do I like the Nikon as much? No. But do I trust it more? Yes. And in my book trust always trumps desire esp when it comes to fulfilling the needs of paying clients. And I am one of Leica's paying clients....

 

This reflects exactly my observations. I am fooling around with my M8 like this since 18 months and I am feeling very much left alone by Leica.

 

The latest was after upgrade to 2.0 that image numbering does no longer work continuously an line in sensor

 

CS has it now for over 4 weeks and still no return or replacement

 

If the S System will be like that then simply forget! And YES, also my Nikon D3 works flawlessly - out of the box!

[marknorton]

Yes, another fan of the D3 here - 15000 images and never a problem.

 

I'm afraid I see no hope of changing Leica's mind. If they did, they would immediately be swamped by complaints from people who have sold their M8 and bought an M8.2 just to get the function - "you made me spend all this money for nothing..."

 

As it is, M8 prices are falling rapidly. I saw a secondhand one in London yesterday for £1599 and a new one for £2399, so that means, maybe £1100 trade in. So, a) I can either spend £1050 for the upgrades and miss out on the function, £2890 for the new camera or c) put the money towards a D3x.

 

Guess where I'm heading?

[delander †]

Yes now Leica are deep in a hole and cant change tack.

 

Well I guess your heading to the big Nikon.

 

The M8 still takes the same pics as the M8.2. I will be really amazed if M8.2 prices hold up for long.

 

Jeff

[chris_tribble]

Looks like a lot of us are in the same place... but I'd like to balance things a little (despite having been a grouch at times)...

 

1/ I've never been let down by any of my M8s. Even when I had the stripe problem the camera hadn't failed on me - I could have kept on working with it if need be...

2/ When I've needed service from Leica UK they've been quick, courteous and efficient - e.g. when I dropped a body and put the RF out of whack they repaired it for free under the UK Passport and got it back to me in a week.

3/ Leica Solms have been as good - quick, courteous and efficient. My stripe-problem body was repaired in two weeks and the upgrade was also done at the same time. Impeccable.

4/ Maybe I've been lucky, but I've not had backfocus problems with lenses, framelines out of true or the other issues that some of you have had.

5/ The M8 in its original state let me make great pictures that my clients appreciated. It became a trusted (but noisy) companion that I took everywhere with me - unlike my DSLRs. However, despite it being a good friend it was still an embarrassment at times - like a good friend who will insist on loud conversations when travelling with them on the London Underground (non-Brits need to know that this is culturally anathematic for a lot of Londoners... )

6/ The M8.2 gives me functionality, image quality and portability. I'm fine with it.

 

My complaint (and my reason for contributing to this thread) has been about the sound of the shutter, the lack of separation between shutter release and re-cock and then Leica's refusal to include this in the upgrade process. I've now heard from Stefan Daniel (with Mr Kaufmann copied into the correspondence). Stefan's position is that Leica simply couldn't afford to include all the flag-ship features in the upgrade process - they have to sell new cameras to survive. I don't know if that's the right decision - time will tell. But I do respect him and Leica for being up front. My response to Mssrs Daniel and Kaufmann was:

 

My suggestion, and one which Mark Norton and others have also made, is that the discreet shutter upgrade should be offered - but at a cost which makes it more sensible to buy a new M8.2. I think that you would then be seen as honouring your promise, and being commercially realistic. The cosmetic elements (glass / vulcanite etc) could be there as part of a la carte... they're really not critical. The framelines could also be a la carte (at realistic cost). The shutter upgrade + discreet mode should however only be offered as part of a total upgrade, and be priced so that those of us who feel we need it would have to make a tough decision - buy new and get the benefit of Passport etc, or spend the same money on upgrading. That becomes a business decision which a professional has no problem making - it's better to buy new and get the tax write-down on the spend + the income from the second hand sale. That was my decision. My business couldn't support buying two new cameras this year, so I've now got an M8u (the full upgrade) + an M8.2, and I feel that at last I'm able to start using the M8 properly after 2 years of ownership! I genuinely feel that it you presented this option to your customers they would understand your commercial needs, but also recognise that you were offering a unique service. The Leica M8 would be appreciated as a NOT throw-away product, and I can see second hand purchasers of the M8 being greatly encouraged that there also existed an upgrade path for their cameras as well...

 

And that's where I stay. I think Leica has been put in an invidious position through its failure to monitor what it's MD Steven Lee was up to and for letting him make promises that it was going to be impossible to honour. They now have the challenging management task of dealing with the place they're in now. I really don't know how this will work out. I do know that the M8.2 is a remarkable camera that let's me work in the way I want, and in the places I need to go. Good as it is, the M8u will never quite do this - purely because of shutter / re-cock sound, so at some point it will go (when there's an M9?) and will, I hope, offer a very good starting point for new Leica owners with different needs from my own.

 

And I think that's about it from me on this story. I'm off out to take some photos. I'll be using an M8 ....

[delander †]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Chris,

 

Just to balance things you have had different treatment by Leica than others here. I sent my M8 in for a replacement sensor. In fact I sent it in before you did. I still dont have it back. Neither Leica UK or Solm ever communicate on progress etc. I'm not asking for a telelephone call but a couple of emails might be re-assuring. Why should I have to chase this stuff via phone calls to Germany?

 

Jeff

[jaapv]

I can only say - my M8's have taken anything I could thow at them in their stride - and believe me, it has been quite a bit. (see my post in the Digital forum) The only thing one of them did not survive was a real crash - but it was repairable, when any other camera would have been nuts and bolts all over the landscape. But that is not the issue of this thread. I think that anybody who seriously believes that any electronic device can be kept upgraded to the latest standards, regardless of what the future can bring is being a bit naive - to say the least. What digital camera has had the the level of upgradability that Leica is offering here? I would say they are doing quite well in implementing a bold statement...

[Shootist]

I do know that the M8.2 is a remarkable camera that let's me work in the way I want, and in the places I need to go. Good as it is, the M8u will never quite do this - purely because of shutter / re-cock sound, so at some point it will go (when there's an M9?) and will, I hope, offer a very good starting point for new Leica owners with different needs from my own.

 

 

 

Chris I think that is just a point of view.

You can't tell me that good/excellent concert, wedding, or any quit place photos haven't been taken using some other camera then a Leica M and not disturbing those involved.

What the M8.2 does for you is make you feel better about the shots you are taking. Whatever the M8.2 can do the M8.u or the original M8 can do.

What if you only had a M8u or original M8, they would throw you out the door, I don't think so.

It's just a tool. If that tool make the user feel better about the work he is doing with it that's great but to say you can't do that work with some other tool is incorrect.

[dcoombs]

Chris,

 

Just to balance things you have had different treatment by Leica than others here. I sent my M8 in for a replacement sensor. In fact I sent it in before you did. I still dont have it back. Neither Leica UK or Solm ever communicate on progress etc. I'm not asking for a telelephone call but a couple of emails might be re-assuring. Why should I have to chase this stuff via phone calls to Germany?

 

Jeff

 

I'm sorry to hear about your experience, Jeff, because mine has been in line with Chris's. I sent my M8 to Solms (directly via DHL, not through Leica UK) for a replacement sensor and had it back in my hands in 10 days flat. They sent me an email which included the work order number so I could track progress on the website. Work took 5 days and started as soon as they received the camera. No queue as far as I could see. I have been completely satisfied with Leica's dedication and service.

 

Just wish everyone's experience were similar.

 

Doug

[marknorton]

I'd be much more inclined to buy a new camera if what matters most, the imaging quality, had been improved. As it is, the upgrades are to bring the camera up to a standard which might reasonably have been expected from the outset given Leica's heritage and pricing.

 

Two predictions:

 

1. This upgrade program is a one-off; you won't see further upgrades to future versions of the camera.

 

2. It will not be around indefinitely.

 

Whether the delayed shutter wind will be able to salvage M8.2 sales from oblivion in the current economic climate, we will have to see. What's certain is they've lost €20,000 of business from me.

[stunsworth]

Whether the delayed shutter wind will be able to salvage M8.2 sales from oblivion...

 

Oblivion eh. Oh dear.

[delander †]

I'm sorry to hear about your experience, Jeff, because mine has been in line with Chris's. I sent my M8 to Solms (directly via DHL, not through Leica UK) for a replacement sensor and had it back in my hands in 10 days flat. They sent me an email which included the work order number so I could track progress on the website. Work took 5 days and started as soon as they received the camera. No queue as far as I could see. I have been completely satisfied with Leica's dedication and service.

 

Just wish everyone's experience were similar.

 

Doug

 

I do now realise that to take it to Leica UK for them to send to Germany was a mistake.

 

Jeff

[Guest stnami]

Are you buying one Steve?

[stunsworth]

Are you buying one Steve?

 

I already have an M8 that does everything I need. I've been more than happy with my M8, so if it when tits up then yes I'd buy an M8.2 without having to give it any real thought.

[Guest stnami]

So you are not buying one in the near future, so three posts and none of us are buying a m8.2 . I'll probably buy a couple more older Leica lenses or canon but that's pretty useless to Leica.

[tomasis7]

Airbus, AFAIK, were trying to save money: They continued using their engineering software CATIA V4 in some of their engineering departments, although some other of their "shops" had already upgraded to V5. The V4 and V5 departments had to cooperate- they used converter software. Somewhere during the conversion process, some of the engineers remarks attached to the plan files got lost, and some small conversion errors added up....in the end, some centimetres of cable were missing in the A380.

Compared to this 4.000.000.000 Euro desaster, the major and minor issues of the M8 are peanuts (don´t misunderstand me: yes, I was angry with Leica, too, as I had to bring back the camera after 1 day because it had a hotpixel...but they gave me another camera, and later fixed a few other things....).

And yes: I would like to upgrade to both silent shutter and discrete mode. Yes.

Regards

Stefan

 

my point that it happens everywhere not only in small companies. We humans are quite human lol

[stunsworth]

So you are not buying one in the near future, so three posts and none of us are buying a m8.2

 

Three of us, sounds like Leica are doomed doesn't it?

 

Do you think I ought to tell them that I won't be buying an S2 either? They may want to cancel the development program once they find out.

[tomasis7]

Sorry, I dont believe I have made any impolite posts?

 

Jeff

 

Sorry I didnt meant personally but look how the thread is turned out. It ought be full of constructive criticism but it is apparently not. I'd give award for most polite post in the thread. It is Daniel Stefans input.

 

Just try forget your self at the moment and look at point of view of Leica as company. It is always great that customers get more and more but money just dont fall from the sky.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[tomasis7]

What's certain is they've lost €20,000 of business from me.

 

You repeated it again and again. Who hell cares about it?

 

I dont think that us, forum members represent for other who dont browse forums, but are photographing at full time.

 

Isn't that so that we hear a lot of most dissatisfied customers, but nothing from other?

 

Who really cares of old dusty promises of Steven Lee which is no longer in the company? Lets move forwards. Customers are not showing a lot of honour, neither do companies either.