ChrisC Posted October 27, 2008 Share #201 Posted October 27, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) ..this sub-forum is becoming a laughing stock................... censorship based on ownership..... is unacceptable in any language... Bill - With respect [as always, I hope], I disagree with your assertion that this current, and other fallout makes the forum a laughing stock. It appears to me, Leica stumbled into the digital age utterly unprepared for the changed trading environment and how the internet in particular can quickly damage a company when they try to 'pull a fast one' [eg for Leica - the IR fiasco], or bask in the PR and market bonuses of an announcement from the top of the company [eg for Leica - 'Upgrades'] and then breach that promise as if no one would notice or care. We know that Leica check this site, and rather than the 'laughing stock' you assert - I think this forum continues to give important pressure-point feedback to Leica. If Leica cannot hear the loud and clear messages coming from eg Chris Tribble, Charles Patterson, Mark Norton and others on [in this instance] the denial of 'discrete rewind' for paying upgraders to the new shutter they will be dumber for it. Had my first and only Leica been an MP, I might well be thinking that Leica was a fabulous engineering concern worthy of continued support. But the Leica company of the M8 generation now appears to be a different animal, one that has willingly traded on it's old name and reputation but in the opinion of many you disagree with, continue to provide poor-to-lousy Service, PR, and Support. Prior to the internet age, had Mark Norton dissembled a Leica and discovered aspects of poor design, components, and construction; few outside his immediate circle would ever have known, but in this age; we all have access to such findings and I would hope that the fact of rapid information-sharing alone would sharpen up Leica's act. There may be people who actually think that censorship here is a good thing, and like you - I have nothing in common with such attitudes. But there are those you disagree with who make a case that their experience of using the M8 has special validity for their arguments, and I tend to agree that it does. As a first time Leica buyer with the M8, I can't think of Leica as a 'sharp act' unfortunately, and worse; I think they are sometimes dull and 'blunt', as I think they are being in the case of the 'discrete rewind' function for paying upgraders. You're welcome to disagree with me of course. .................. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 27, 2008 Posted October 27, 2008 Hi ChrisC, Take a look here Hot Air and Broken Promises. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
yanidel Posted October 27, 2008 Share #202 Posted October 27, 2008 Chris, very well stated. I would add that Leica is lucky to have such forums where customers voice their concerns, be them negative or positive. For the products I deal with, that are no other alternative then to organize focus groups/telemarketing or surveys which costs in the tenth of thousands dollars. This forum is cheap input for Leica. It might not be represensatitive of all customers but at least give some directions. When I read that the decision to leave the discreet shutter out of the upgrade program was taken during a single meeting ... that scares me. I can imagine a bunch of people discussing the pros and cons ... sorry, but you ask a panel of customers, you don't procrastinate between managers as many times you will end up with wrong assumptions. This to say, that any discussion on Leica's policy or business decisions, be them positive or negative, is good for all parties and should not be banned by "move on" kind of messages. There are so many instances of companies changing their stances after customer feedback, this forum is a part, though small, of that scheme. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted October 27, 2008 Share #203 Posted October 27, 2008 Bill - With respect [as always, I hope], I disagree with your assertion that this current, and other fallout makes the forum a laughing stock. It appears to me, Leica stumbled into the digital age utterly unprepared for the changed trading environment and how the internet in particular can quickly damage a company when they try to 'pull a fast one' [eg for Leica - the IR fiasco], or bask in the PR and market bonuses of an announcement from the top of the company [eg for Leica - 'Upgrades'] and then breach that promise as if no one would notice or care. We know that Leica check this site, and rather than the 'laughing stock' you assert - I think this forum continues to give important pressure-point feedback to Leica. If Leica cannot hear the loud and clear messages coming from eg Chris Tribble, Charles Patterson, Mark Norton and others on [in this instance] the denial of 'discrete rewind' for paying upgraders to the new shutter they will be dumber for it. Had my first and only Leica been an MP, I might well be thinking that Leica was a fabulous engineering concern worthy of continued support. But the Leica company of the M8 generation now appears to be a different animal, one that has willingly traded on it's old name and reputation but in the opinion of many you disagree with, continue to provide poor-to-lousy Service, PR, and Support. Prior to the internet age, had Mark Norton dissembled a Leica and discovered aspects of poor design, components, and construction; few outside his immediate circle would ever have known, but in this age; we all have access to such findings and I would hope that the fact of rapid information-sharing alone would sharpen up Leica's act. There may be people who actually think that censorship here is a good thing, and like you - I have nothing in common with such attitudes. But there are those you disagree with who make a case that their experience of using the M8 has special validity for their arguments, and I tend to agree that it does. As a first time Leica buyer with the M8, I can't think of Leica as a 'sharp act' unfortunately, and worse; I think they are sometimes dull and 'blunt', as I think they are being in the case of the 'discrete rewind' function for paying upgraders. You're welcome to disagree with me of course. .................. Chris if we look at history, leica used to make "metal and glass things" to say. Now when they come in the digital arena, suddenly they need a new knowledge, competence. To invest in the new "medium" costs a lot money for small company to develop all things at your own. Look at S2. It is not pure 100% german made. Fujitsu, Kodak, Phase One whatever. They are experts on their things. But the question is it if it fails something, is it to blame Leica or its subcontractor? It is easy improve automatic manufacturing of millions Nikon D60 with programming and robots. Do you think humans are capable to do better things than robots? Even Mercedes did had problem with electronics. Is it normal? of course. It applies BMW, Audi, Volvo......................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 27, 2008 Share #204 Posted October 27, 2008 There are so many instances of companies changing their stances after customer feedback, this forum is a part, though small, of that scheme. I agree - Chris C very good post sums it up correctly. Perhaps Leica will decide to offer the discreet shutter to M8 owners after the initial surge in M8.2 sales has faded. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted October 27, 2008 Share #205 Posted October 27, 2008 we have forgot Airbus with budget larger than all camera companies or some countries. They did had problem with electronics lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 27, 2008 Share #206 Posted October 27, 2008 Bill - With respect [as always, I hope], I disagree with your assertion... Chris, thank you very much for that cogent and reasoned post, much of which I agree with. Leica is operating in a different world now, and the "Generation M8" customer is a totally different beast from the customer base even as little as three years ago. I have absolute sympathy with those who take issue with Leica - particularly, it seems, Leica New Jersey - for poor customer service and poor servicing of Leica equipment. It is not acceptable to return equipment with as many - if not more - faults than it was sent in with. I also think Leica suffers greatly from the SKL "aftershocks" - the man made some daft moves, and some daft pronouncements. BUT - the world has moved on. He is no longer calling the shots - thank goodness - and beating the company up for decisions and announcements he made is like berating George Bush for Bill Clinton's indiscretions. The constant and unrelenting negativity that seems to surround the M8 detracts from the fact that it is an exceptional picture-taking machine that is currently unique. The issue I have, purely and simply, is with those who seem to think that the very act of buying an M8 makes them "special", and uniquely qualified to express their opinions, to which Leica must listen, and upon which Leica must act. Worse, some seem to think that they have not bought a camera, but shares in the company and are entitled to preferential treatment and "dividends". There are many here who speak with the voice of reason, but there are an increasing number who just seem intent on joining the Greek chorus of "Leica must..." demands. I have said before, and I shall say again - I did not, and do not, want an M8. It was a disappointment to me when it was introduced and it has not changed sufficiently to make me change my mind. I do want a digital rangefinder that takes M lenses - be that the M9 or whatever and frankly my concern is that the current level of incessant and accusatory whining will lead Leica as a company to decide to put the M8 and any successor currently on the drawing board in the "too hard" box. Then we would all be the poorer. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted October 27, 2008 Share #207 Posted October 27, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 27, 2008 Share #208 Posted October 27, 2008 Bill, The title of this thread is 'Hot Air and Broken Promises'. It is not specifically negative wrt to the M8. However, I am one of those who feel that Leica has not stood by its press release of early 2008 and further that it should stand by that press release. Leica made that press release to improve the lagging sales of the M8, some people bought in on that basis. Leica's current position is not tenable. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 27, 2008 Share #209 Posted October 27, 2008 If we're being picky, Leica have stood by their statement. They promised the upgrades, but didn't mention timescales. They could announce the delayed shutter in 12 months time and no one would have anything to complain about. Would they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 27, 2008 Share #210 Posted October 27, 2008 Of course they could Steve but they would just be so cynical. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 27, 2008 Share #211 Posted October 27, 2008 Leica's current position is not tenable. Yes, it is. You may not like it, but that does not alter the facts. Jeff, you made choices based on a marketing announcement. You may like to read this "safe harbour" statement: Note on prognostic statements Internet pages investor relations, releases, business and interim reports, forecasts, presentations, audio and video transmissions of events (live or recorded) and other documents on this website contain prognostic statements relating to future development based on the current evaluation of the management. Prognostic statements are characterized by words such as "anticipate", "assume", "think", "estimate", "expect", "intend", "can/could", "plan", "project", "should". Such statements contain some risk and a certain level of uncertainty. We neither intend nor are we obliged to update prognostic statements, as they are based solely on the conditions valid on their day of publication. This comes from here: Leica Camera AG - Legal Notice I don't know of a single company in these litigious times that does not have something similar, from "E&OE" all the way up to wording like this and beyond. Caveat emptor. Your decision, your responsibility. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 27, 2008 Share #212 Posted October 27, 2008 A lot of marketing is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted October 27, 2008 Share #213 Posted October 27, 2008 Bill, The title of this thread is 'Hot Air and Broken Promises'. It is not specifically negative wrt to the M8. However, I am one of those who feel that Leica has not stood by its press release of early 2008 and further that it should stand by that press release. Leica made that press release to improve the lagging sales of the M8, some people bought in on that basis. Leica's current position is not tenable. Jeff Several times I've put off posting this, however I'm one of those people who is not particularly happy over Leica's stance. I took the press release very seriously, sufficient to convince me to stay with the system in spite of the teething problems and buy a second M8 and lenses. I was fully aware that there could be technical reasons why certain upgrades may not have been possible in the future. After the press release, for Leica not to offer a paid upgrade of a particular function due to marketing considerations is very bad form in my opinion. I do need the delayed re-cock for performance work where you can wait for an opportune moment to re-cock. Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 27, 2008 Share #214 Posted October 27, 2008 .The constant and unrelenting negativity that seems to surround the M8 detracts from the fact that it is an exceptional picture-taking machine that is currently unique..... my concern is that the current level of incessant and accusatory whining will lead Leica as a company to decide to put the M8 and any successor currently on the drawing board in the "too hard" box..... Bill - Hi. First; Bill Clinton was indiscreet? Blimey, I really need to get out of this forum more often. It really is a matter of perception whether one man's whining and unrelenting negativity is another man's constructive criticism, and it is good to remind ourselves that for many contributors; English is not their first language and generally I think they express themselves well considering how difficult some of us 'native' speakers find written English to be. However, I can't think of any M8 owning contributor to the forum that is critical of Leica and/or aspects of the M8 who isn't certain that the M8 is 'an exceptional picture-taking machine that is currently unique', myself included. I don't share your 'too hard box' concerns for the next generation digital 'M', I think you will get your camera eventually, and when you do - the improvements will in-part be due to critical feedback from this forum. ................... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 27, 2008 Share #215 Posted October 27, 2008 Yes, it is. You may not like it, but that does not alter the facts. Jeff, you made choices based on a marketing announcement. You may like to read this "safe harbour" statement: Note on prognostic statements Internet pages investor relations, releases, business and interim reports, forecasts, presentations, audio and video transmissions of events (live or recorded) and other documents on this website contain prognostic statements relating to future development based on the current evaluation of the management. Prognostic statements are characterized by words such as "anticipate", "assume", "think", "estimate", "expect", "intend", "can/could", "plan", "project", "should". Such statements contain some risk and a certain level of uncertainty. We neither intend nor are we obliged to update prognostic statements, as they are based solely on the conditions valid on their day of publication. This comes from here: Leica Camera AG - Legal Notice I don't know of a single company in these litigious times that does not have something similar, from "E&OE" all the way up to wording like this and beyond. Caveat emptor. Your decision, your responsibility. Regards, Bill Sorry Bill I dont read this weasle word stuff, just Leica's press release. Believing Leica, silly me. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 27, 2008 Share #216 Posted October 27, 2008 Jeff Want to buy an investment opportunity I have? It'll make you a fortune! Maybe. It's in Zimbabwe and priced in local currency Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 27, 2008 Share #217 Posted October 27, 2008 or maybe not. I know that there are always let outs but I actually did buy into Leica partly because being an older chap I wished to see a historic camera company succeed where other historic names had simply faded away. I did not wish to go back to film so when the M8 came along I jumped in. I have two M8s one is still back in Solms for a new sensor. I dont regard any of my camera gear as investments its just for fun and enjoyment. I just think that Leica made the wrong marketing decision and broke a promise. They should not have done that to those who supported the M8 when it first came out. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted October 27, 2008 Share #218 Posted October 27, 2008 They should not have done that to those who supported the M8 when it first came out. Jeff As many said, you'd not buy that. How hard is recognize that for some guys here, lol. Bill didnt buy M8. It is his decision. He doesnt whine at least. Dont believe that through inpolite posts you and other gain respect from Leica management. I detected some pattern of consumerism. Some tend to believe that the more shouting you yell, the chance is bigger that you get something of free delicate candy Nice wishful thinking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 27, 2008 Share #219 Posted October 27, 2008 Dont believe that through inpolite posts you and other gain respect from Leica management. Sorry, I dont believe I have made any impolite posts? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steich Posted October 27, 2008 Share #220 Posted October 27, 2008 we have forgot Airbus with budget larger than all camera companies or some countries. They did had problem with electronics lol Airbus, AFAIK, were trying to save money: They continued using their engineering software CATIA V4 in some of their engineering departments, although some other of their "shops" had already upgraded to V5. The V4 and V5 departments had to cooperate- they used converter software. Somewhere during the conversion process, some of the engineers remarks attached to the plan files got lost, and some small conversion errors added up....in the end, some centimetres of cable were missing in the A380. Compared to this 4.000.000.000 Euro desaster, the major and minor issues of the M8 are peanuts (don´t misunderstand me: yes, I was angry with Leica, too, as I had to bring back the camera after 1 day because it had a hotpixel...but they gave me another camera, and later fixed a few other things....). And yes: I would like to upgrade to both silent shutter and discrete mode. Yes. Regards Stefan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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