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marknorton

Hot Air and Broken Promises

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So, here is the email Leica sent out earlier in the year telling us M8 users "will always be able to incorporate the latest refinements and developments in handling ease and technology"

 

Infinitely upgradeable, they implied.

 

Like the delayed shutter wind and new exposure compensation "refinements in handling ease", you mean?

 

 

It would have been nice if Leica had admitted they had got it wrong and oversold the concept. A 30% lens discount might go some way to making up for their "irrational exuberance". I'll take a Noctilux for my first camera, a 21mm Summilux for my second and a 24mm Summilux for my third, please. Thank you.

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I think Leica position the label wrong, it should be vertical and not horizontal. and also they forgot to put the Letter M......it should be read as ......best before M8 and not infinity...

 

 

Am I making sense here..just ignore me I just want to laugh for my own joke...

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In a strict judgment of that email one (agreed, more politician than human

) could imply that Leica are right on course with what they claim: So far, they do give you the opportunity to upgrade, but certainly not perpetually. They don't claim anywhere that you can have what an M8.2 or a future M8.3 might get.. and so on: it's a perpetual Upgrade program... but,

My last hope for an M8.u=M8.2 when all M8s are sold for good and some time has passed so they can justify someone that had paid 4800E on one and now is required to pay another 1200 for a camera that costs just 5000E

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It is a pity that a company like Leica takes such position towards old (and deserving beta tester) customers, denying them these features for reasons like- if you want it- buy M8.2.

 

IMHO this is obviously a FW thing, (if not they should say so, and why).

 

I am upgrading my M8 to a new shutter, but the silent mode I could well use, since I shoot a lot of theater.

Let me remind Leica that I must live with green stripe and filter reflections shooting theatre, just to be able to use 50Lux (otherwise I use 70-200/2.8 L with IS)....

Obviusly, silent camera is better option, but Mk2 (or any other pro camera now) is virtually flawless- just like Leica lenses; and I have to cope with M8....and not get it to be silent untill I spend couple of K more...

 

Something should be done- Leica was unfair to do this.

 

 

 

 

M

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Before the hyenas gather yet again to rip Leica's throats out, this is, frankly, complete and utter bollocks. So a marketing claim was made and the world has moved on in the meantime. Big fat hairy deal.

 

Live with it, or sell your Leica kit. They are clearly lying hounds who cannot be trusted to work a vending machine.

 

This sort of whine makes me livid. It is totally pointless.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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Guest DuquesneG

Supposedly it was a user campaign that got Leica to change the framelines and offer them as an upgrade. So I don't see why a user campaign wouldn't convince them to offer the delayed shutter cocking, at least as part of the shutter upgrade. The problem is all the people who are getting their shutter upgraded anyway. If everyone declared a moratorium against upgrading until Leica changed their policy, you'd see how fast they would cave.

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Lets do this. Ive got mine at week 46, but I can always cancel....

Or there is too little people here?

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Supposedly it was a user campaign that got Leica to change the framelines and offer them as an upgrade. So I don't see why a user campaign wouldn't convince them to offer the delayed shutter cocking, at least as part of the shutter upgrade. The problem is all the people who are getting their shutter upgraded anyway. If everyone declared a moratorium against upgrading until Leica changed their policy, you'd see how fast they would cave.

Have to agree with that. In the end money always talks and everything else walks.

I am not doing any upgrades for a couple of reasons.

One big reason is I do not need the extended warranty. The problems I have had with either of my M8's are well documented, by me with letters to Leica when the cameras were/are sent in to correct them and by posts on this and other forums.

I expect Leica to fix any and all of these well documented problem, if I have any in the future, for free because of the faulty hardware used in the camera from day one.

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Does anyone actually know (for certain, not "wishfully") that this delayed shutter cocking option is actually technically feasible in an original M8?

 

What if it involved whole new guts in the camera?

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Does anyone actually know (for certain, not "wishfully") that this delayed shutter cocking option is actually technically feasible in an original M8?

 

What if it involved whole new guts in the camera?

 

If I were Leica I would want to ensure that the M8.2 had at least one USP to encourage people to upgrade from the M8.

 

Result - M8s released to the secondhand market by existing owners

Result - greater penetration of the M8 in general

Result - new customers attracted by new features

Result - M8.2 bought by more people because they want the unique features only it has

 

The absolute last thing I would do, whether technically possible or not, would be to allow my market to stagnate.

 

Did all the existing M8s cease to operate when the M8.2 was announced, I wonder? Did they all lose their ability to capture decent images? No. What they actually got was a "makeover" that made them better cameras. But are people happy? No. Instead they moan and whine about what they haven't got rather than appreciating what they have.

 

I think an awful lot of this "j'accuse Leica", sour grapes nonsense comes from those who cannot bear that they no longer own the dernier cri of digital rangefinder cameras. Somebody who has not earned the battle scars through M8 ownership thus far can now - horrors - own a better camera than them just by walking into a dealership and buying one. This type of thread is mischevious at best and corrosive at worst.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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For me the only possible reason to upgrade would be to get the better (less) vibration/longer handheld shutter time. On the down side I am unhappy that you lose the 1/8000 so I am not convinced I will do this ultimately. If I can convince the management at home that we cannot survive without a new Noctilux then I would probably like to keep the 1/8000. For me all the other stuff is not an upgrade - just a cosmetic thing.

 

Delayed recocking is not a prime issue for me, although the option M8 standard shutter + delayed recocking would be an interesting compromise. Slightly more silent and you keep the 1/8000. I do think Leica should clarify is this is not possible or a marketing decision, both make sense and in the latter case we need our favorite firmware hacker to get back on the job. (NOTE: What happened to that thead? The stuff on tinkering with the 8 bit compression table. The thread was removed 'temporarily' in eager anticipation of white smoke emerging from the Leica chimney.)

 

Final point to bear in mind, on another thread we heard that the Leica definition of infinite is 1000x the focal length. The focal length of a M8 body is 0 I guess:D

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Before Bill - not even an M8 owner anyway - bursts a blood vessel, it's worth pointing out that I'm not saying this function should be made available to every M8; however, if you have shutter upgraded - at a total cost roughly equivalent to a new M8.2 - I think the function should be made available as part of the upgrade to provide equivalent functionality.

 

While it maybe that the original email was issued at SLK's behest, it's clearly now misleading and they should explicitly withdraw it or honour the original commitment.

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I wish there was a smilie for loud applause! Well said Bill!

 

 

If I were Leica I would want to ensure that the M8.2 had at least one USP to encourage people to upgrade from the M8.

 

Result - M8s released to the secondhand market by existing owners

Result - greater penetration of the M8 in general

Result - new customers attracted by new features

Result - M8.2 bought by more people because they want the unique features only it has

 

The absolute last thing I would do, whether technically possible or not, would be to allow my market to stagnate.

 

Did all the existing M8s cease to operate when the M8.2 was announced, I wonder? Did they all lose their ability to capture decent images? No. What they actually got was a "makeover" that made them better cameras. But are people happy? No. Instead they moan and whine about what they haven't got rather than appreciating what they have.

 

I think an awful lot of this "j'accuse Leica", sour grapes nonsense comes from those who cannot bear that they no longer own the dernier cri of digital rangefinder cameras. Somebody who has not earned the battle scars through M8 ownership thus far can now - horrors - own a better camera than them just by walking into a dealership and buying one. This type of thread is mischevious at best and corrosive at worst.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

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Delayed recocking is not a prime issue for me, although the option M8 standard shutter + delayed recocking would be an interesting compromise. Slightly more silent and you keep the 1/8000.

 

Yes, one of my M8s is in bits and I have the circuit diagram in front of me and that's what I am doing. My plan is to do away with the C mode and make that delayed winding (haven't worked out what C stands for now - suggestions?) and there will be a small micro in there which makes the camera think it's talking to the shutter but it's actually talking to me and my micro controls the winding based on the setting of the switch and the position of the shutter release.

 

I'll also be doing an "Anatomy of the Leica M8 framelines" so that people can see how they work.

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Since we'll be paying for it, I think it ALL should be available, as far as is feasible. If the delayed shutter cocking really is a matter of firmware, then it should be offered to everybody, and without charge. Despite Bill's fulminations, I think everybody agrees that the M8 was a flawed camera when it came out; I see these changes not so much as an upgrade, but as a repair. How is it an upgrade to get a shutter that only goes to 4000, instead of 8000? We can't expect Leica to pick up all the costs -- we know we're going to pay extra to be early adopters, that's just part of the game -- but where they can help, without significant cost to themselves, they should. One basic rule of high-end sales is that it's best not to abuse your proven customers...

 

JC

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Guest DuquesneG

 

I think an awful lot of this "j'accuse Leica", sour grapes nonsense comes from those who cannot bear that they no longer own the dernier cri of digital rangefinder cameras. Somebody who has not earned the battle scars through M8 ownership thus far can now - horrors - own a better camera than them just by walking into a dealership and buying one. This type of thread is mischevious at best and corrosive at worst.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Wow! And people accuse me of being negative, patronizing and insulting to others:p

 

But I see the good sense in what you were saying (before that part). Sure Leica's marketing department has a legitimate reason to give buyers a reason to buy an M8.2 vs upgrading an M8. The problem--as I see it--is that the marketing department, having little or no knowledge of things camera-related, made a poor decision in choosing that particular feature to deny upgraders. They denied the "S" mode, at least insomuch as a single dial setting (of course it is "available" on an M8 via a combinationm of separate settings). Nobody is "whining" or "moaning" about that. They aren't willing to sell the black-painted top plate as an upgrade item. That's not getting much flak either. The two-touch EV compensation is no doubt a firmware thing, which they are also denying to M8 owners. OK, that's kind of galling, but not many people are on the warpath over it.

 

The big problem with the delayed recock is, upgraders are paying Leica a substantial amount of money for the shutter upgrade, and ostensibly getting the same shutter that's in the M8.2. The main reason most people are willing to shell out that kind of money is because they want a quieter camera. Denying the delayed recock substantially lowers the potential effectiveness of the upgrade to quiet the camera, and therefore substantially lowers the perceived value of the upgrade. So whatever marketing advantage it has in favor of the M8.2, is offset by a marketing disadvantage against the upgrade program...which is another profit center for Leica after all. So not only doesn't it make sense from a technical standpoint, it doesn't even make sense from a marketing standpoint.

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haven't worked out what C stands for now - suggestions?
C is for concert mode

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Well, Mark, Leica may get the comeuppance you believe they deserve. Economies in their key markets are in a nose-dive the likes of which we've not seen in 70 years. Methinks Leica will be sitting on a great deal of M8.2 inventory and perhaps even a still-born S2 (given a severe slump in commercial ad budgets). To apply a phrase from the film "Men in Black", "That ain't gonna grow back!", at least not soon.

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I think it would be fair to sell only M8.2 as M8 but they chose instead of selling both M8 and M8.2.

 

We'll see how long they sell original M8 and I think it is maybe that updates for M8.2 are a bit expensive to replace original M8 with M8.2? Or we ought see that like a la carte when some people dont want black paint, silent shutter, 2m framelines etc.

 

M8 and M8.2 look much like resp analog brothers M7 and MP

 

Bill's input is clever, kudos

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