chris_tribble Posted October 28, 2008 Share #241 Posted October 28, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Chris I think that is just a point of view.You can't tell me that good/excellent concert, wedding, or any quit place photos haven't been taken using some other camera then a Leica M and not disturbing those involved. What the M8.2 does for you is make you feel better about the shots you are taking. Whatever the M8.2 can do the M8.u or the original M8 can do. What if you only had a M8u or original M8, they would throw you out the door, I don't think so. It's just a tool. If that tool make the user feel better about the work he is doing with it that's great but to say you can't do that work with some other tool is incorrect. Aah... here we go again... The precise point of an earlier post is that in at least one recent context other cameras were not considered acceptable by a sound engineer, but the M8.2 in discreet mode was. I've used most kinds of 35 mm camera over the last 30 years, and the only ones that have been regularly acceptable on film sets / quiet concert spaces and the like have been M3, M6 (some of the time) M7 and now M8.2. OM1 and 2 didn't really hack it, EOS 1, 1n and 1v were all problems - as were Nikon F and FM... So this isn't just a matter of what makes me feel comfortable, it's about what's allowed in acoustically controlled spaces. It's not a question of things being just tools. There's also the question of having the right tool. The M8.2 is now the tool I need for these contexts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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guy Posted October 28, 2008 Share #242 Posted October 28, 2008 I've had this problem on film sets (as I've remarked before). I'm seriously tempted to upgrade – now that it seems confirmed by several people on the forum that the M8u and the M8.2 sound pretty identical in "normal" mode (rather than discrete mode) I'll try to have a go on a shop M8.2 with my M8 in my other hand and make the decision from there. I must say I'm delighted the option's there, even if it's costly! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidomo Posted October 28, 2008 Share #243 Posted October 28, 2008 I think that anybody who seriously believes that any electronic device can be kept upgraded to the latest standards, regardless of what the future can bring is being a bit naive - to say the least. Well, that makes Leica naive, it was their concept after all! I have to agree to many of the sentiments here. I have had none of the problems many have described, but the fact that certain features are excluded from the M8 firmware is very disappointing to phrase is carefully. I also would not pay for the delayed rewind function. As Mark rightly points out we are looking at a few lines of code which (1) cost 8 man hours of a skilled software engineer max and (2) should have been written a long long time ago. In fact, the slow speed of advancing the firmware has astonished me. It is not only functions like this which would have given real value to the users, it is also all those bugs. I get the impression the M8's firmware is a really dirty hack and maintained by a part-time engineer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 28, 2008 Share #244 Posted October 28, 2008 I've had this problem on film sets (as I've remarked before). I'm seriously tempted to upgrade – now that it seems confirmed by several people on the forum that the M8u and the M8.2 sound pretty identical in "normal" mode (rather than discrete mode) I'll try to have a go on a shop M8.2 with my M8 in my other hand and make the decision from there. I must say I'm delighted the option's there, even if it's costly! Guy - I did the same thing at RG Lewis. I didn't even have to stop and think once I'd heard the difference. Expensive though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 28, 2008 Share #245 Posted October 28, 2008 Aah... here we go again... The precise point of an earlier post is that in at least one recent context other cameras were not considered acceptable by a sound engineer, but the M8.2 in discreet mode was. I've used most kinds of 35 mm camera over the last 30 years, and the only ones that have been regularly acceptable on film sets / quiet concert spaces and the like have been M3, M6 (some of the time) M7 and now M8.2. OM1 and 2 didn't really hack it, EOS 1, 1n and 1v were all problems - as were Nikon F and FM... So this isn't just a matter of what makes me feel comfortable, it's about what's allowed in acoustically controlled spaces. It's not a question of things being just tools. There's also the question of having the right tool. The M8.2 is now the tool I need for these contexts. That is happening Chris, because somehow they know the 8.2 uses a new silent shutter. But the upgraded M8 can use the same silent shutter as well, it's just that none can tell, there is no visual difference. But as soon as you get the silent upgrade, I bet, both the M8 and the M8.2 can shoot in that precious concert. Or else we are getting crazy here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy Posted October 28, 2008 Share #246 Posted October 28, 2008 Guy - I did the same thing at RG Lewis. I didn't even have to stop and think once I'd heard the difference. Expensive though... I know, I know... And yet, and yet... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 28, 2008 Share #247 Posted October 28, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) That is happening Chris, because somehow they know the 8.2 uses a new silent shutter. But the upgraded M8 can use the same silent shutter as well, it's just that none can tell, there is no visual difference. But as soon as you get the silent upgrade, I bet, both the M8 and the M8.2 can shoot in that precious concert. Or else we are getting crazy here Diogenis - I'm afraid you're not correct here. Brass tacks time: the SHUTTERS on M8u and the M8.2 are identical. the sounds of the shutter actuation + recock on the M8u and the M8.2 are identical when the M8.2 is in "normal" mode. the sounds of the shutter actuation on its own are also identical on the M8u and the M8.2 (you can check this by putting the camera into B mode, actuating the shutter, and then releasing the shutter button) the difference, and this is critical - is that working with the M8.2 in discreet mode, you are able to actuate the shutter to take a shot, and then wait for as long as you want before you re-cock the shutter. This means that in a quiet environment (like the concert shoot I have just done) I could still shoot in a critical moment and then wait until there was more music happening until I re-cocked ( I was using a monopod so couldn't tuck the camera under my jacket or under a bag on my lap to mask the sound). You can't do this with the M8c or M8u - and that's why they're not such useful tools for my purposes. I will happily continue to use my M8u in street photography, general documentary work - a whole host of purposes - for me it's a much better implementation of the M than the M8c - it is noticeably quieter, less attention seeking, a better camera. But it isn't - and so far as we know - will never be, the M8.2. ...and no - we're not getting crazy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 28, 2008 Share #248 Posted October 28, 2008 Do you think I ought to tell them that I won't be buying an S2 either? They may want to cancel the development program once they find out. I thought you were bowing out of this forum and had already said your goodbyes earlier in this thread? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 28, 2008 Share #249 Posted October 28, 2008 I thought you were bowing out of this forum and had already said your goodbyes earlier in this thread? Changed my mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakku Posted October 28, 2008 Share #250 Posted October 28, 2008 May I throw in another aspect into this discussion: We were just confirmed that the discreet shutter mode is solely a software feature which could nicely work in any upgraded M8, if implemented therein, same way as in the M8.2 (maybe even in any original M8). To me the subject has nothing to do with the 'Upgrade programme' which refers to (paid-for) hardware components. But Leica entered into yet another commitment, i. e. to keep the firmware up-to-date (free), as the camera's functions are gradually improved. By including the discreet shutter mode in the next firmware version Leica would just honour that commitment, and I really hope they will do so. If - jeopardizing their given commitment - Leica indeed sticks to their most recently declared policy, i.e. not to release the discreet mode to M8/M8u bodies, I wonder what the next firmware update will bring in this respect. Will there be different versions to avoid (how?) that this particular improvement is implemented on M8/M8u? Horst Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted October 28, 2008 Share #251 Posted October 28, 2008 Most of the Leica m8's hardly see the light of day, there are enough monied guys out there to buy, play and then put them in with the rest of the redundant ,unwanted etc toys.. Sure they will buy another M whatever because it promises to be better and is affordable, some lose a bit of their money in our present environment but most will get it back plus more and start buying the S2, m9 or whatever is new by the bucketfull. For important photographs they pay others to take them with whatever camera as long as it comes up looking spunky ( love that word) In the wash up it doesn't have to be a great camera just good enough to make sales as the myth/mystique for many is alive and well. Some people who need to take photographs will use an m but most will opt for something practical. When Kaufman tires of his company or dies( whichever comes first) it will be sold off and a new saga for the better or worse will begin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 28, 2008 Share #252 Posted October 28, 2008 stanmi - do I detect a hint of cynism here? Surely not - I had you down as one of those nice guys who sees the best in everyone - a sort of Pangloss of the L Forum... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted October 28, 2008 Share #253 Posted October 28, 2008 Not cynical ....just the voice of Voltaire the hub of the forum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
padraigm Posted October 28, 2008 Share #254 Posted October 28, 2008 You can add me to the list of individuals who will not part with one more $ (well maybe for my M6) until the discreet shutter is offered as an upgrade or an M9. They should have offered this option and I think the vast majority are at the very least disappointed they have not. I guess with the S2 on the horizon all R&D money is going towards that so $'s going to Leica from me seems a long long way off. I hope I am wrong, but Leica needs to be a bit more aggressive in meeting it's user needs and not like they are doing us a favor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted October 29, 2008 Share #255 Posted October 29, 2008 Most of the Leica m8's hardly see the light of day, there are enough monied guys out there to buy, play and then put them in with the rest of the redundant ,unwanted etc toys.. Sure they will buy another M whatever because it promises to be better and is affordable, some lose a bit of their money in our present environment but most will get it back plus more and start buying the S2, m9 or whatever is new by the bucketfull. For important photographs they pay others to take them with whatever camera as long as it comes up looking spunky ( love that word) In the wash up it doesn't have to be a great camera just good enough to make sales as the myth/mystique for many is alive and well. Some people who need to take photographs will use an m but most will opt for something practical. When Kaufman tires of his company or dies( whichever comes first) it will be sold off and a new saga for the better or worse will begin Good to see you haven't become judgemental during your (all too) brief hiatus while you were busy with your show. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted October 29, 2008 Share #256 Posted October 29, 2008 Good to see you haven't become judgemental during your (all too) brief hiatus while you were busy with your show. I knew something had changed the world seems to have shifted its axis and is rotating around you again ........ phwee I am glad things are back to ............ man you should be nice to me! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 29, 2008 Share #257 Posted October 29, 2008 Diogenis - I'm afraid you're not correct here. Brass tacks time: the SHUTTERS on M8u and the M8.2 are identical. the sounds of the shutter actuation + recock on the M8u and the M8.2 are identical when the M8.2 is in "normal" mode. the sounds of the shutter actuation on its own are also identical on the M8u and the M8.2 (you can check this by putting the camera into B mode, actuating the shutter, and then releasing the shutter button) the difference, and this is critical - is that working with the M8.2 in discreet mode, you are able to actuate the shutter to take a shot, and then wait for as long as you want before you re-cock the shutter. This means that in a quiet environment (like the concert shoot I have just done) I could still shoot in a critical moment and then wait until there was more music happening until I re-cocked ( I was using a monopod so couldn't tuck the camera under my jacket or under a bag on my lap to mask the sound). You can't do this with the M8c or M8u - and that's why they're not such useful tools for my purposes. I will happily continue to use my M8u in street photography, general documentary work - a whole host of purposes - for me it's a much better implementation of the M than the M8c - it is noticeably quieter, less attention seeking, a better camera. But it isn't - and so far as we know - will never be, the M8.2. ...and no - we're not getting crazy All this sounds very complicated to explain to the guard that watches you for photo equipment, or to the sound engineer that is performing his final checks and accepts a guy with a strange camera in hand that tries to explain what a discreet shutter is. Personally I can't find anything rational to all this, and all I can do is agree that there are indeed some peculiar cases one camera is accepted while the other is not. Leica should ultimately release this stupid feature to all for free, to end once and for all a silly dispute for something that is not there to see or hear, but can ultimately create very bad marketing trends and therefore jeopardize sales... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hx911 Posted October 29, 2008 Share #258 Posted October 29, 2008 Leica should ultimately release this stupid feature to all for free, to end once and for all a silly dispute.... Horray! I Agree. End of story, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Essemmlee Posted October 29, 2008 Share #259 Posted October 29, 2008 Most of the Leica m8's hardly see the light of day, there are enough monied guys out there to buy, play and then put them in with the rest of the redundant ,unwanted etc toys. I'd be very interested in the research documentation that supports this statement. Could you provide us all with this information as well as from where it emanated such that we can make informed purchasing decisions in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted October 29, 2008 Share #260 Posted October 29, 2008 I'll give you first shot at this seeing that you are a capable decision maker and have a vested interest in this situation. Show me all the data that states otherwise, transcripts of interviews, numbers contacted and we shall take it from there. I accept your kind offer of the information that you are about to send me on this subject and thanks for your efforts ps no broken promises Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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