lct Posted October 25, 2008 Share #161 Posted October 25, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...Indeed you have ZERO skin in the M8, which does matter when you are expressing your Leica orthodoxy... Terry, i have no skin in the M8 either but i'm an old Leicaphile as well as (younger) Bill and you so we are all entitled to express our opinon aren't we. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 25, 2008 Posted October 25, 2008 Hi lct, Take a look here Hot Air and Broken Promises. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
terrycioni Posted October 25, 2008 Share #162 Posted October 25, 2008 Whatever.... You are always right and righteous! That must be a terrible burden for you. I move on... Terry Nothing at all. That is my point, and my objection to Mark's repeated insinuation. Ah, another one. What complete bollocks. I rest my case. Thanks Terry. I had you down as one of the more pragmatic ones around here. I don't need a UV/IR filter to see your true colours following that enlightening post. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 25, 2008 Share #163 Posted October 25, 2008 Terry, i have no skin in the M8 either but i'm an old Leicaphile as well as (younger) Bill and you so we are all entitled to express our opinon aren't we. Thank you LCT. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrycioni Posted October 25, 2008 Share #164 Posted October 25, 2008 Terry, i have no skin in the M8 either but i'm an old Leicaphile as well as (younger) Bill and you so we are all entitled to express our opinon aren't we. Of course you are... As am I! Would you agree with that? That said I will restrict my comments henceforth - as I would not describe myself as a "Leicaphile". I am however an M8 owner who has gone through the recall, UV/Ir fiasco, SDS, etc. In other words I have supported Leica when they needed it.... I am just not a "Leicaphile". In fact on this very forum I have been called more names than I want to consider because of my stand-up support of the M/M8 Best regards. Terry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted October 25, 2008 Share #165 Posted October 25, 2008 Oops sorry for the Leicaphile Terry but you like a bit those little Leica things don't you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrycioni Posted October 25, 2008 Share #166 Posted October 25, 2008 Oops sorry for the Leicaphile Terry but you like a bit those little Leica things don't you? Some would say I have the red dot tattooed my ass. I don't collect (everything Leica I own I use), I don't belong to LHSA. I don't own R, I prefer Nikon DSLR (silly me). I respect (all) opinions expressed in the M8 forum, including Mark's opinion - even though it might run contrary to what Leica should or shouldn't do with the re-cocking business. I am of course curious about the entire upgrade business decision and I agree it is their decision to make. Best regards. Terry PS. I just bought a D-LUX4 - at about $400 more than the LX3. Why the RED DOT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 25, 2008 Share #167 Posted October 25, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm sorry this is not about complaining about the M8 - it is what it is. This is about Leica's marketing department making statements about perpetual upgrades to the latest technology and handling and then just failing to do that. No one ever asked Leica to announce an upgrade programme. They made that decision, I dont think it is is unreasonable for M8 owners to complain when Leica purposely withhold a key improvement from that upgrade programme, not on the basis of technology but by a bad marketing decision. This is not doing Leica any good, but perhaps they dont care so much about the M system anymore, they see the S2 as their future. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share #168 Posted October 25, 2008 Bill, I noticed looking at a few of your images that you took pictures at the opera in Verona, presumably using your M7 or whatever. So did I, from the second row in the stalls, and my camera was clearly a disturbance to the people in front of me. The M8 was not suitable for this use and all this noise, this invective, from you comes in spite of this limitation of the M8c and M8u not being a problem for you. Truth is, Leica got lots of things wrong with the M8, a noisy shutter being one of them. Us early adopters are now being made to suffer for our show of faith in Leica by buying the M8 early - my show of faith cost me £40,000. Happy to support the company and their products but not happy when Leica introduce a no-conditions infinite upgrade program, fall at the first fence and do not have the good grace to say, "sorry, we got it wrong, we oversold the concept". I'm not asking for the function free of charge, but it should be available to people upgrading the shutter, not least because it's only, say, 100 lines of firmware that a competent programmer could put together in a few hours. I do hardware, firmware, software and I have an M8 sitting on my lab bench right now with lots of wires coming out which has delayed wind on. I've fooled the M8 into thinking it's talking to its shutter when in fact it's talking to a PC and the same PC is controlling the shutter. It's only a matter of effort (and figuring out the power management) to build this into the camera; there's the required amount of space underneath the rangefinder. On balance though, I'd much rather Leica gave me access to those 100 lines of code. Finally, I say again: my business practice is to keep my customers loyal by keeping their product up to date; they understand they have to pay but there is nothing off limits. That's my business ethic and it has served me more than well, and you can read what you like into that statement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 25, 2008 Share #169 Posted October 25, 2008 Mark, Read the EXIF. You will find I used an LX-2. I won't bother to respond to the rest of your justification, save to say that the man who started a thread called "hot air and broken promises" accusing me of "invective" is more than a little rich. You made a choice to be an early adopter - no one made you do it. For the record, I had one of the first M7s into the UK - it had to be swapped out with a battery drain problem. I also had one of the first batch of CMs - it had to be swapped out with a battery drain problem. Did you know that before? No. Why? Because I don't go on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it. How much you have spent on Leica kit is your choice and your business. I'm not interested, no matter how many times you broadcast it. Your spend buys you the bodies and lenses - no more and no less. Oh never mind - misery loves company. I'll leave you to it. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 26, 2008 Share #170 Posted October 26, 2008 Diogenis - have you ever handled the M8.2? If not, them I'm afraid your comments have little value. The delay is the critical difference. As I demonstrated 18 months ago, the shutter sound of the M8 and the M7 don't differ that much. It's the noise of the re-cock which is the killer. Separate them so that you can muffle the re-cock under your jacket or a camera bag or whatever, and the challenge of shooting in very quiet places is largely resolved. So in the meantime I'll continue with my childish disgruntlement. Arf... Chris, you also want to follow the slippery road of others thats say: you don't have "x" you aren't entitled to speak about it.... It's very sad to see mature people to resort to cheap arguments like these, just because they cant argue, but want to stay arguing... I don't own an M8.2 nor an M8.u, but I can envision how it is like! And no, we are not comparing older mechanical cameras that belong to the history but the M8. Leica has issued sound files that do the comparisons for the rest of us that can't access an M8.2. If this feature is that important to you, you should sell your old camera and buy an 8.2. Personally I can't justify such an expense for a feature of questionable use. Besides in most theaters of todays, photographers are banned clearly, no matter what kind of tool they use. And I am not intended to take a picture like a spook. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and I do respect yours, but the facts are facts and the facts are that the only notable difference of an m8.2 to an m8 is merely a delayed motor winding thats all. There is no difference in noises. Just this. I prefer spending 1200E to upgrade to an m8.u than selling mine and buying a new one for 3000E Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted October 26, 2008 Share #171 Posted October 26, 2008 From my own position, I bought my M8 before there was any mention of an upgrade program. I bought it in the full knowledge of the IR issues, banding and so on. I was never enthused by the upgrade program as (a) I never had a problem with the LCD glass and ( the shutter noise was not a huge concern to me. That being said, Leica did say (imply) in their marketing release that M8 owners could be confident that technology permitting they could upgrade their M8 to the latest specification. I do see the logic in offering some unique selling points for the M8.2 version but I also think it's perhaps a bit short sighted on Leica's behalf given what they implied and the existing M8 customer base have endured over the past 2 years. It's easy to sit on the side lines throwing stones when one has no direct involvement with the issue and perhaps a measure of understanding to others concerns would go a long way towards understanding the position some people find themselves in now. I certainly don't subscribe to the view that the M8.u is any less fit for use than the M8.2 or in it's initial release form. If you're in such a noise sensitive environment, it's quite possible that photography is not openly welcome or permitted regardless of the camera or quietness of your actions. But in these situations there is always one who seems oblivious to the rule and clicks away oblivious to the annoyance of those around him or her. Oh! and for the record , I'll have my M8.2 on Tuesday, a replacement of my M8.beta which I've been using for the past 2 years. I doubt my opinion of the camera will change much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 26, 2008 Share #172 Posted October 26, 2008 When I decided to buy mine I certainly took into consideration the upgrade offer. Also I do remember that back in the time they were offering just one upgrade: the 1200E one, in which you were enforced to change and pay for both the lcd AND the silent shutter. Now the upgrade programme is far more flexible in both price and options. It allows you to upgrade your camera a-la carte, to whatever you feel is important and with prices starting at 650E. Compare that to a 5000E new m8.2. Of course it would be nice to offer the discreet shutter for free with whatever the camera you have, but does it really make any sense to delay the almost silent motor rewind on your old m8 that goes CLUNK and wakes the dead? Or is it really that important to have it with your new extra silent shutter, since total noise is the same at all times. It's not that you dont hear the motor. You hear it but at a later time... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 26, 2008 Author Share #173 Posted October 26, 2008 I've never suggested that the delayed wind should be provided for the M8c since, as you say, the initial release is noisy anyway - as you can see if you release on "B" - and will defeat the object of delaying the wind. The wind on the M8 is hardly "almost silent" due to the higher load than in the modified camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted October 26, 2008 Share #174 Posted October 26, 2008 PS. I just bought a D-LUX4 - at about $400 more than the LX3. Why the RED DOT comedian!!!? gotta luvit! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted October 26, 2008 Share #175 Posted October 26, 2008 Of course it would be nice to offer the discreet shutter for free An important point: nobody here is asking for the full discreet shutter upgrade for free. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted October 26, 2008 Share #176 Posted October 26, 2008 I've never suggested that the delayed wind should be provided for the M8c Maybe not but I have. That would be a good compromise between stealth and speed. If it was available that would be the modification I would go for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted October 26, 2008 Share #177 Posted October 26, 2008 An important point: nobody here is asking for the full discreet shutter upgrade for free. Jeff Jeff, they would have given it free of charge if they wanted to. Mark, I never suggested that you had, I was referring to those that asked for it. I do insist that the motor wind is almost silent though, even if like I said that makes little to no difference. If someone wants to violate the rules and take pictures in places that are forbidden, I guess he can do so with or without that delay. Personally I wouldn't. I would like to take my m8 inside Carnegie but I do so knowing the risks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted October 26, 2008 Share #178 Posted October 26, 2008 Looks like he hit a sensitive nerve with a verbose nebbish who can't afford an M8 but loves to criticize the big bad Leica company. This forum is like a bunch of aging hens. Leica M8.2 - The camera for the 50 year old plus crowd who are badly in need of a "re-cock". (Your views are not only invalid, but laughably amusing) Yet again, Mark? This is clearly an issue to you. It is clearly documented that I waited, watched, read and listened. I tried an M8, more than once. I then made an informed decision that it was not for me. I have never made either a secret of that, or of the features, form factor and capabilities that would make me change my mind, and buy a future digital M in a nanosecond. So, does my lack of an M8 render my views invalid? Clearly in your mind it does, or you would not keep pointing it out at every opportunity. Would you like to see me disqualified from stating my opinions, pray tell? Would you like the M8 sub-forum to become an owners-only club? Sounds suspiciously like it. If you care to notice, I do not criticise the M8 - it is what it is, and it was the best that Leica could do at the time. I criticise those who don't know when to stop moaning, whose SD card is always half-empty, and who have failed to grasp the simple fact that you can't always get what you want, no matter how much you stamp your feet, hold your breath and turn blue. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted October 26, 2008 Share #179 Posted October 26, 2008 I don't own an M8.2 nor an M8.u, but I can envision how it is like! And no, we are not comparing older mechanical cameras that belong to the history but the M8. Leica has issued sound files that do the comparisons for the rest of us that can't access an M8.2. If this feature is that important to you, you should sell your old camera and buy an 8.2. Personally I can't justify such an expense for a feature of questionable use. Besides in most theaters of todays, photographers are banned clearly, no matter what kind of tool they use. And I am not intended to take a picture like a spook. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and I do respect yours, but the facts are facts and the facts are that the only notable difference of an m8.2 to an m8 is merely a delayed motor winding thats all. There is no difference in noises. Just this. I prefer spending 1200E to upgrade to an m8.u than selling mine and buying a new one for 3000E Oh dear... Case in point. I was shooting for ECM at the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester last night - the Bobo Stenson Trio played well + it was very nice to meet Chris C during the break (so I have a witness!) 1. I was shooting professionally by invitation of the artists and had planned to do both the sound-check + the concert 2. the BBC were recording the band and I was initially advised by the venue management that I wouldn't be able to shoot during the concert. 3. I talked to the sound engineers when I got to the event and checked if it might be OK to do some work during the event. We tested the 5D (no no), the M8u (mmmm) and the M8.2 with delayed re-cock (YES - no problem) As I had the 135 apo telyt + a monopod with me I was able to get some keepers during the set. First two examples below are from the sound check (28 cron asph) and the last one during the gig (135). TWO points. 1/ all these are at 1250. It's very very good if you expose correctly - all done on manual and allowing half to one stop under... 2/ for concert and quiet place photography the M8.2 does the job - but you need the delayed re-cock to shoot in quiet moments. I'm lucky - I've got one. I'm bitching on this forum because I think it sucks that others who haven't got the cash to hand are denied this essential feature. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/65530-hot-air-and-broken-promises/?do=findComment&comment=696195'>More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 26, 2008 Share #180 Posted October 26, 2008 I'm lucky - I've got one. I'm bitching on this forum because I think it sucks that others who haven't got the cash to hand are denied this essential feature. Surely it's only an "essential feature" for those people using an M8 in a highly noise-sensitive situation? I don't have the cash at hand to buy an M8 at all - where do I bitch? Nice shots, btw. (stick them in the photo section...) (What's ECM?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts