Jump to content

Hot Air and Broken Promises


marknorton

Recommended Posts

Advertisement (gone after registration)

One thing is for sure, Leica marketing are underestimating the 'savvy' of their customers.

M8.2 should have been introduced at same price as M8 (withdrawn from sale). Upgrade programme for existing M8s should have included all options, priced so that popping down to your dealer and part-exing was a financially attractive option to bothering with the upgrades.

 

Problem solved, all fair and reasonable, everyone happy, customers, dealers etc and then we could all get out and buy those new lenses without all this angst.

 

Thats my take,

 

Jeff

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Replies 374
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

... you are behaving like a bunch of maiden aunts who have just had a hoodie fart in front of them in the bus queue

 

Not all of us Bill <grin>.

 

When the clichéd dust settles, I wonder what percentage of M8 owners will have _any_ of the upgrades fitted? 5%, 10% maybe 20%? Who knows.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"Oh, the World owes me a livin'..."

 

Change the record, someone. Leica is a BUSINESS not a CHARITY.

 

I'm just waiting for the following statements:

 

"Leica should change their business plan totally and give me what I want, because I am, after all, me."

 

"If anyone around here is happy with the M8 and with Leica I want them caught and shot immediately."

 

"Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie, or I shall scream and scream and scream until I am sick!"

 

Grow up, people. Start behaving like the adults you are, instead of walking around with a bottom lip like a Volvo bumper. You have the world's only viable rangefinder digital camera, with the best glass in the world to use on it and you are behaving like a bunch of maiden aunts who have just had a hoodie fart in front of them in the bus queue.

 

Good grief.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Is this a reply to my post? If so, despite what you'll now no doubt reply, you just don't understand.

 

JGW.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Grow up, people. Start behaving like the adults you are, instead of walking around with a bottom lip like a Volvo bumper. You have the world's only viable rangefinder digital camera, with the best glass in the world to use on it and you are behaving like a bunch of maiden aunts who have just had a hoodie fart in front of them in the bus queue.

 

:D :D

 

Volvo bumper! Maiden aunts and a hoodie fart!

 

I no longer have an opinion on the topic of the thread (that I am willing to share), but this has to be one of the funniest paragraphs I've seen on the forum in a long time.

 

Nice one Bill.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"Oh, the World owes me a livin'..."

 

Change the record, someone. Leica is a BUSINESS not a CHARITY.

 

I'm just waiting for the following statements:

 

"Leica should change their business plan totally and give me what I want, because I am, after all, me."

 

"If anyone around here is happy with the M8 and with Leica I want them caught and shot immediately."

 

"Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie, or I shall scream and scream and scream until I am sick!"

 

Grow up, people. Start behaving like the adults you are, instead of walking around with a bottom lip like a Volvo bumper. You have the world's only viable rangefinder digital camera, with the best glass in the world to use on it and you are behaving like a bunch of maiden aunts who have just had a hoodie fart in front of them in the bus queue.

 

Good grief.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

While some of us grow up and hopefully start to behave like adults, I suggest you read a book on marketing and maybe even one on business ... ;)

Statement like companies are businesses not charity is what I was explained when I was eight years old, reality is a bit more complicated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Advertisement (gone after registration)

...you just don't understand.

 

*sigh*

 

No Jeffrey, don't kid yourself. It wasn't a reply to your post, specifically. Yours was just the latest in a long litany of posts that all share one or more of the following words:

 

"should"

"unfair"

"lie"

"deny"

"fault"

 

And yes, I do understand, only too well.

 

This has bog all to do with a digital rangefinder and everything to do with a bunch of middle-aged men with more money than sense who are used to getting their own way and don't like it when their egos are not stroked by a privately-owned European manufacturer of fine optical equipment.

 

These self-same men have made a discretionary purchase and are flatly denying any personal responsibility for doing so. "It's all Leica's fault... men in white coats with red dots on came and made me take the money out of the bank and buy this horrid M8 and now they won't do as I say and I don't like them anymore."

 

There's a thoroughly nasty little playground style mob mentality going on here right now, with people taking it in turns trying to top the previous poster with their "big idea" of what Leica "should" do, and how "disadvantaged" they are personally that Leica has dared to do something else. Boo-hoo.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites

Statement like companies are businesses not charity is what I was explained when I was eight years old, reality is a bit more complicated.

 

Yes, Yanidel, I know, but one has to write in terms that one's audience will understand. ;)

 

Regards,

 

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said Bill.

Just for the record I own 2 M8's bought long before the upgrade program was ever mentioned.

 

 

 

*sigh*

 

No Jeffrey, don't kid yourself. It wasn't a reply to your post, specifically. Yours was just the latest in a long litany of posts that all share one or more of the following words:

 

"should"

"unfair"

"lie"

"deny"

"fault"

 

And yes, I do understand, only too well.

 

This has bog all to do with a digital rangefinder and everything to do with a bunch of middle-aged men with more money than sense who are used to getting their own way and don't like it when their egos are not stroked by a privately-owned European manufacturer of fine optical equipment.

 

These self-same men have made a discretionary purchase and are flatly denying any personal responsibility for doing so. "It's all Leica's fault... men in white coats with red dots on came and made me take the money out of the bank and buy this horrid M8 and now they won't do as I say and I don't like them anymore."

 

There's a thoroughly nasty little playground style mob mentality going on here right now, with people taking it in turns trying to top the previous poster with their "big idea" of what Leica "should" do, and how "disadvantaged" they are personally that Leica has dared to do something else. Boo-hoo.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites

Err, wouldn't this still be selling both cameras? I imagine selling off existing stock is exactly what Leica are doing with the M8.

 

If you noticed I said "at a discount." The fact that the M8 classic is over $700 more than it was originally released is not going to make it exactly fly off the shelf at this stage in the game.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This whole story about Leica's broken promises and such is at least stupid...

Leica is delivering an M8.u which is actually a M8.2 minus .001% of its functions. Old M8 owners are given the opportunity to upgrade their cameras to the new camera minus a couple silly things, of which the most important gives you the option to stick your finger on that shutter release button indefinitely to avoid rewinding. There is no difference in noise... just a time shift is introduced and a (questionable usability) EV adjustment thru the outer ring

How is Leica not delivering, or broking promises? Do you really think these are core values for your cameras?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've chosen to use previous Leica M rangefinders to photograph in hospital operating theatres, during cathedral services, in schools during examinations, for theatre and music performances and also during television programme filming. I have never chosen my M8 for working in similar situations because I know it would fail. After the shutter upgrade I believe it would still be questionable for some of my work. I was relieved when Leica made available the correction for the frameline design fault, but the M8 is still not quite there: the discreet mode would retrieve this model. This is all it needs, and then it would be finished. The M9 could then move into unhindered new territory. For Leica to deny this shutter necessity to its first digital rangefinder (and the people who bought it) is unforgivable.

JGW.

 

JGW - this is a reply to your thoughtful note. Your argument is my argument. I could use my M7 in real world "impossible" situations (like an uninvited unauthorised shoot from the front row of a concert in the Queen Elizabeth Hall in London which ended up with the images being used on the artist's subsequent CD - Press photos 2005) My M8 was unusable in these conditions, as is my M8u. The M8.2 CAN be used in this sort of context - so it's a real M camera.

 

Leica is delivering an M8.u which is actually a M8.2 minus .001% of its functions. Old M8 owners are given the opportunity to upgrade their cameras to the new camera minus a couple silly things, of which the most important gives you the option to stick your finger on that shutter release button indefinitely to avoid rewinding. There is no difference in noise... just a time shift is introduced and a (questionable usability)

 

Diogenis - have you ever handled the M8.2? If not, them I'm afraid your comments have little value. The delay is the critical difference. As I demonstrated 18 months ago, the shutter sound of the M8 and the M7 don't differ that much. It's the noise of the re-cock which is the killer. Separate them so that you can muffle the re-cock under your jacket or a camera bag or whatever, and the challenge of shooting in very quiet places is largely resolved.

 

So in the meantime I'll continue with my childish disgruntlement.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Chris, not childish disgruntlement, just the considered view of a professional photographer who needs a quiet camera and for whom the M8c and M8u are not fit for purpose.

 

I'm evidently one of those middle aged people with "more money than sense" that Bill, as a non-M8 owner, rails against. My issue with Leica is that they have failed to live up to the marketing hype and should now withdraw it instead of pretending it never happened. From my point of view, the M8.2 fixes problems in the M8 but I note that the IR sensitivity, green streaks and dismal high ISO performance remain.

 

Here in the UK, the M8 can now be bought at a 40% discount to the M8.2, so it's not altogether surprising Leica are keen to emphasise the benefits, real or imaginary, of the M8.2 over the M8.

 

If, however, Leica are betting that the delayed shutter wind will save their sales, they are in for a rude awakening.

Link to post
Share on other sites

in the end, the fact that Leica does not allow to upgrade to the delayed re-cock function is not a sound business decision. It forgoes the fact that M8 customers have already spend thousands of dollars on a product ... so allowing an upgrade for which customers are even ready to pay is basic marketing, it builds long term brand loyalty vs some cash on new M8.2 that they will get anyway from the Leica hard core fans ...

Anyway, not a big deal for me, I am very happy with the current M8 and would not give up the 1/8000th for the rest of he M8.2 features. I work in marketing and like to see other companies marketing strategies. This is clearly not a core expertise of Leica IMHO.

Link to post
Share on other sites

....that Leica does not allow to upgrade to the delayed re-cock function is not a sound business decision......

 

That's my suspicion too, and it's not as if the shutter upgrade is exactly cheap - so I too feel that by withholding the discrete rewind function Leica is doing a disservice to Leica's best customers; those who bought into the M8 at a time we thought that the company was in danger of going under. I doubt that there has been one member of this forum who thought the noisy shutter and rewind of the M8 was appropriate for an 'M' tradition, so I agree with Chris Tribble's and Mark Norton's position regarding the denied 'discrete' function from the expensive shutter upgrade. That function, as Chris pointed out, makes it a 'real M camera'.

 

Of course Leica's [still] absurdly poor Marketeers will defend their position to withhold the discrete rewind from purchased replacement shutter upgrades, and I will retain my opinion that it's a stupid decision by a company appearing to still need a cull of their dead wood [in Design, Marketing, and Service].

 

.............. Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites

... that Bill, as a non-M8 owner...

 

Yet again, Mark?

 

This is clearly an issue to you.

 

It is clearly documented that I waited, watched, read and listened. I tried an M8, more than once. I then made an informed decision that it was not for me. I have never made either a secret of that, or of the features, form factor and capabilities that would make me change my mind, and buy a future digital M in a nanosecond.

 

So, does my lack of an M8 render my views invalid? Clearly in your mind it does, or you would not keep pointing it out at every opportunity.

 

Would you like to see me disqualified from stating my opinions, pray tell? Would you like the M8 sub-forum to become an owners-only club? Sounds suspiciously like it. If you care to notice, I do not criticise the M8 - it is what it is, and it was the best that Leica could do at the time. I criticise those who don't know when to stop moaning, whose SD card is always half-empty, and who have failed to grasp the simple fact that you can't always get what you want, no matter how much you stamp your feet, hold your breath and turn blue.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yet again, Mark?

 

I then made an informed decision that it was not for me.

 

Bill

 

I don't really understand then why you are posting here. It wasn't for you, move on. Although I agree with a lot of what you have said I truly don't know why you bother.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yet again, Bill!

 

I would ask what empowers you any more or less than Mark to express a view of the re-cocking upgrade (not being offered).

 

You have taken on defending Leica with a missionary zeal. Indeed you have ZERO skin in the M8, which does matter when you are expressing your Leica orthodoxy.

 

Indeed why would you even have opened and read this thread as it does not have any particular relationship to your Leica involvement.

 

Any complaint legitimate (or not related) related to Leica get's your ire. All well and good, but you are in my opinion over the top. Given these responses I find your signature somewhat disengenous.

 

Just to be clear - when it comes to the M8 - you are unqualified....

 

 

 

Yet again, Mark?

 

This is clearly an issue to you.

 

It is clearly documented that I waited, watched, read and listened. I tried an M8, more than once. I then made an informed decision that it was not for me. I have never made either a secret of that, or of the features, form factor and capabilities that would make me change my mind, and buy a future digital M in a nanosecond.

 

So, does my lack of an M8 render my views invalid? Clearly in your mind it does, or you would not keep pointing it out at every opportunity.

 

Would you like to see me disqualified from stating my opinions, pray tell? Would you like the M8 sub-forum to become an owners-only club? Sounds suspiciously like it. If you care to notice, I do not criticise the M8 - it is what it is, and it was the best that Leica could do at the time. I criticise those who don't know when to stop moaning, whose SD card is always half-empty, and who have failed to grasp the simple fact that you can't always get what you want, no matter how much you stamp your feet, hold your breath and turn blue.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I'm with Bill on this one. If you buy a banana then why complain that it doesn't taste like a peach? Sure, you might wish you'd bought a peach, especially when the greengrocer's started selling peaches, but you bought a banana.

 

This forum seems to have developed into the M8 bitching and whining forum. Quite frankly I've had enough. What enjoyment I uses to get out of it has gone and it's probably time to move on.

 

Bye

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would ask what empowers you any more or less than Mark to express a view of the re-cocking upgrade (not being offered).

 

Nothing at all. That is my point, and my objection to Mark's repeated insinuation.

 

Indeed you have ZERO skin in the M8, which does matter when you are expressing your Leica orthodoxy.

 

Ah, another one. What complete bollocks.

 

Just to be clear - when it comes to the M8 - you are unqualified....

 

I rest my case. :rolleyes:

 

Thanks Terry. I had you down as one of the more pragmatic ones around here. I don't need a UV/IR filter to see your true colours following that enlightening post.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...