new start: leica vs. harley davidson

[ChadHahn]

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Comparing Leica to Harley made me ROTFLMAO. Harley sells to municipal police departments. Harley's are solid, ride-em-hard-to-hell-and-back bikes today, not just lipservice to something they were 40 years ago, not just expensive but technologically outdated and mechanically unreliable bikes for rich lawyers and dentists pretending they're Hell's Angels on weekends. In other words, Harley walks the walk while Leica talks the talk. Leica's problem isn't lack of image, it's that they're 90% image.

 

Most departments in my area use BMWs.

 

Chad

[Iron Flatline]

Apologies to you if you own or simply like HD products.

 

Ducati forever.

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[Iron Flatline]

OMG I can't believe how juvenile my rant was. I'm voluntarily banning myself to MySpace of the rest of the night.

 

HD SuXors.

 

Ducati FTW.

[smokysun]

1) What does Leica stand for today? Or alternately: What is the core of the Leica brand and how does this materialise in the market?

 

2) Where does he want it to be in 2-5-10 years from now? Or alternately: What is Leica's share (or niche) of the market and what are the distinct product features to serve this?

 

3) What needs to be done to get there? Or alternately: What capabilities does Leica AG need to have and evolve over time to build, sustain, and grow their business profitably?

 

*******

 

turns out i don't know how to use the quote option. anyway, i agree with these questions (my experience of business very limited. maybe my wide-eyed ignorance a help.) here are some questions for the questions.)

 

1. leica was known for famous photographers using it. isn't that first and foremost? second, quality under photojournalistic, rough conditions? is it going to be a specialist niche, or branch out using it's image reputation? (and this does go beyond a few photographers, ie. binoculars and birders. also the fact it used for famous news stories put it in the mainstream.) i am afraid they'd get sidetracked going the polaroid route and cameras would become low on the totem-pole. branding panasonics as leicas has already hurt them (expectations haven't jived with reviews and prices with the public), i think, while putting their name on panasonic lenses has definitely helped and spread the word.

 

2. yes, is it going to be high quality cameras at high prices, high quality at lower prices (toshiba had to scramble in this direction with laptops), lower quality and lower prices. the website certainly brings up the question of who are these cameras for? it seems aimed at the boutique market and that's been exploited by every camera manufacturer. so far, you can't wear a leica as jewelry, despite c-lux, d-lux attempts. others do this job better.

 

3. here i am really ignorant. how many leica dealers are there who actually totally depend on leica for their income (and i mean in the world)? how many private servicing guys are there? what are dr. kaufann's resources? (i was really sorry when the sinar deal fell through. i thought that might open up the possibilities, maybe the revival of the first leica digital to compete with the large polaroids now not made.) i would certainly advise them to try and get ahead on the sensor curve. even fuji abandoned the best small sensor yet in the f30 and f6000. maybe they could buy the rights to it. so, what is the true state of the field?

 

believe me, i know little about business but i love to work with a quality product.

[Guest stnami]

Iron Flatline as they say give yourself a uppercut and treat yourself with these...........

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[bobtodrick]

I'd disagree Stephen..."For Leica it's just the other way round: A Leica is for experienced photographers only, who know how to focus, how to adjust WB and so on"...I sell these things (Leica's) as well as use them.

Fully 50% of purchaseres of Nikon or Canons pro models (going back to the film days) have gone to pro users. In 15 years of being a pro dealer (and one of our lines is Leica) I do not recall selling one Leica to a pro. Mostly dr.'s, lawyers and oilfield workers (seriously...in oil rich Alberta there are a lot of 'rig pigs' with more money than...).

I'd say the Harley analogy fits perfectly.

[SJP]

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"Photographers" - implies that you know how to focus, figure out the effect of diaphraghm settings, film or sensor sensitivity, focal length, postprocessing etc. So everyone that buys a Leica M8 is a photographer by definition or presumably aspires to be so. Experience comes with experience so that is irrelevant.

 

To be interested in Leica requires the combination of 'brand loyalty' because it comes warts and all. Lets face it we all know that, and I personally don't really care. Leica's can and will not be as reliable as a Nikon or Canon (or Nokia's for that matter) and to expect anything else is unreasonable. Unless we are prepared to pay 5-10x more which I somehow doubt.

 

In 99.9% of the time I prefer if people do not know that I have/own/use one as it appears to put a stigma on the owner that I do not feel comfortable with. It's my hobby not theirs. This in most cases is easy because no-one knows or cares anything about Leica anyway. The remainder are people are interested or are nuts about precision optical and mechanical engineering. Pushing the limits of what you can do with what is after all in essence a simple machine. These are not the prime motivators for the majority of professional photographers and I do not see why Leica owners should be concerned about that. A limited number of professional photographers use Leica to great succes and that is the way it has been for the past 30 years or so.

 

It's a love affair not a rational choice. I still have a love affair with my Nikon FM2 and Olympus XA and I am developing one with the M8.

[bobtodrick]

A funny story (well maybe not so funny).

About 10 years ago a fellow came into our shop and asked to look at a Leica because it had been recommended by a friend of his. He looked at it, held it a arms lenght and admired it and not once LOOKED through it.

Said he'd take it. Asking for his name for the sales receipt, it was Dr something or other.

When I started to repackage it into the box he said "don't bother, I'll wear it!"

Wow...Leica bling before the word had been coined.

I strongly doubt if he knew an F-stop from a stop sign.

[smokysun]

two other thoughts occur:

 

1. aging population of leica owners and admirers. leica seems to have gone through two phases: as a working camera in the era of magazines and practical journalism up to hcb's retirement in the late sixties, then as a prestige item till the nineties and digital. how do you reach a younger generation?

 

2. must be made in germany, thus expensive labor costs. when i first started buying r lenses, the ones from germany more expensive than those made in japan and canada. i ended up with lenses from all three places and every one is beautifully made and gives great pictures. for years i drove vw's, then i switched to japanese pickups and have never looked back. (and a lot of vw's today made in mexico.)

 

quote of the week: "You can't re-paint a Ford and sell it as a Ferrari."

[smokysun]

well, anything after the puts thread seems redundant. did just run across this at barnes and noble. very elementary but interesting for the neophyte.

 

Amazon.com: Identity Crisis: 50 Redesigns That Transformed Stale Identities into Successful Brands: Jeff Fisher: Books

 

everything that needs to be said, has been, i think. in three threads leica can figure out what they need to know. now it's a matter of 'who's listening.'?

[Iron Flatline]

Iron Flatline as they say give yourself a uppercut and treat yourself with these...........

 

Ah...so refreshing. Thank you, just what I needed.

 

That was too much wine last night, sorry about all that.

 

It was a Nebiollo though, hence the extra Italian slant above and beyond my usual affinities, I fear.

[smokysun]

Just a few thoughts:

 

In my view, Mr. Kaufmann (and just he plus maybe some people he explicitly appoints or contracts for that part) will need to find the answer to three questions:

 

1) What does Leica stand for today? Or alternately: What is the core of the Leica brand and how does this materialise in the market?

 

2) Where does he want it to be in 2-5-10 years from now? Or alternately: What is Leica's share (or niche) of the market and what are the distinct product features to serve this?

 

3) What needs to be done to get there? Or alternately: What capabilities does Leica AG need to have and evolve over time to build, sustain, and grow their business profitably?

 

 

Christian

 

Oh, by the way: I do shoot Leica M (among other brands), ride Harleys since the mid 1980s (no other brand), and consult High Tech companies to be successful for the past 16 years. Just to clarify that I might have a slight idea of what I'm writing about...

 

christian,

i recommend leica hire you (and that you send me a new r10 and a couple of lenses for getting you the job.) out of all the entries, yours goes to the heart of the matter.

best,

wayne

[Chrizzlie]

christian,

i recommend leica hire you (and that you send me a new r10 and a couple of lenses for getting you the job.) out of all the entries, yours goes to the heart of the matter.

best,

wayne

 

Hey Wayne - thanks for the credit... although it might turn out, that a R10 (or M9 or any other product) might fall through the cracks in this kind of exercise... so my prize for you could become pretty cheap;)

Seems not to be the time for Leica to keep product(line)s for nostalgic reasons.

"Rightsizing" in every aspect comes to my mind - Leica needs to build a rock-solid foundation, work it from there and put products where their mouth (i.e. marketing) is. Which means quite the opposite from what happened with the revoked "Full Frame Sensor M" announcement of Mr. Lee.

 

I've been through a similar exercise with a consumer electronics brand here in Europe - difficult for all involved parties: shareholders, management, employees, dealers, customers, vendors... but they survived.

 

Cheers,

Christian

[Chrizzlie]

It was a Nebiollo though, hence the extra Italian slant above and beyond my usual affinities, I fear.

 

Good choice of wine, generally speaking.

 

And you are right: Ducatis are quite decent in style and the actually are fast (at least some) and their riders are sleek...

 

But as a die-hard Harley guy I say: "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand"

 

Christian

[ddp]

1. aging population of leica owners and admirers. leica seems to have gone through two phases: as a working camera in the era of magazines and practical journalism up to hcb's retirement in the late sixties, then as a prestige item till the nineties and digital. how do you reach a younger generation?

 

What do you define as a younger generation? I know on the BMW forum I read, they have a photography subsection - most of the guys on there are in their 20's and the gear they use is all Nikon & Canon DSLR. Some higher end models, lots of pro-sumer stuff. The gear they lust after are the flagship bodies and the high speed lenses offered. Leica is almost never mentioned....yet Zeiss is a known entity amongst some of the Nikon users. Part of the problem with Leica is price point. Compare the price of new 80/1.4 Summilux to what Nikon and Canon are offering in the similar focal length. Their 85's are also considered to be excellent lenses.

 

Offering a budget Leica lineup might be one answer....but then you run the risk of what some see as watering down the brand and alienating those who enjoy the exclusivity of the red dot.....

[dfbldwn]

Fully 50% of purchaseres of Nikon or Canons pro models (going back to the film days) have gone to pro users. In 15 years of being a pro dealer (and one of our lines is Leica) I do not recall selling one Leica to a pro.

I believe every word, however, when I bought my first Leica M in 1985, it was because I noticed a lot of professionals used an M when they were somewhere just shooting for themselves or immediate family. Has that changed?

 

I've heard professionals express negative attitudes about using a Leica in their work, but never heard any unkind remarks about a Leica camera as a piece of photographic equipment.

[smokysun]

What do you define as a younger generation? I know on the BMW forum I read, they have a photography subsection - most of the guys on there are in their 20's and the gear they use is all Nikon & Canon DSLR. Some higher end models, lots of pro-sumer stuff. The gear they lust after are the flagship bodies and the high speed lenses offered. Leica is almost never mentioned....yet Zeiss is a known entity amongst some of the Nikon users. Part of the problem with Leica is price point. Compare the price of new 80/1.4 Summilux to what Nikon and Canon are offering in the similar focal length. Their 85's are also considered to be excellent lenses.

 

 

***************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

 

yes, that's the age group i was thinking of (and into early 30's). the leica website showed them using a retro camera! and that's not what's happening. sleek is the word. everything seems to have to be aerodynamic. they're traveling fast.

 

i do think design is a big issue in this commodified world. in terms of price i do have the canon 85 1.2L and the results close to the noctilux. 1100 dollars used. newer version more but not that much in leica terms. it is, of course, a brick, but i need the upper body exercise once in awhile.

 

as christian said, leica needs to get beyond nostalgia.

[ddp]

I believe every word, however, when I bought my first Leica M in 1985, it was because I noticed a lot of professionals used an M when they were somewhere just shooting for themselves or immediate family. Has that changed?

 

I've heard professionals express negative attitudes about using a Leica in their work, but never heard any unkind remarks about a Leica camera as a piece of photographic equipment.

 

 

I tend to use my film M's mostly for my own work...when clients want film, I will throw them into the mix along with Nikon F5's. But most of the time I am shooting digital, as my day job demands it, and most clients want it as well. The M8 is not an option for me at this point and will unlikely be one. For me personally, the M's give me what I'm looking for on film.

[ddp]

There is a very small sampling of young Leica shooters out there - my dealer has mentioned 2 or 3 early 20's users that they know of. This certainly bucks the trend. I remember in college having a discussion with an photography MFA candidate, and how the Hasselblad represented a dream camera for them. At the time, I was using a Nikon F3HP, which I got for a steal....what I lusted for was a Nikkor 300/2.8 and the 180/2.8. The Noct Nikkor 58/1.2 was a fantasy as well. While I was aware of Leica and the legendary glass at the time, it was well outside the scope of comprehension. I was shooting for my college paper as well, and almost all the PJ's had Nikons with motor drives. Leicas? None I can recall.

 

I'm just not sure what you can do to change it from a cult / status object in the eyes of younger shooters.

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[bobtodrick]

I believe every word, however, when I bought my first Leica M in 1985, it was because I noticed a lot of professionals used an M when they were somewhere just shooting for themselves or immediate family. Has that changed?

 

I think it has. I've been involved in photography in one way or another since '72. I do know that then it seemed that many 'pro's' carting around their F1 (Canon) and F2 Nikons also had an M4 for personal work. This seemed to end in the mid 80's for a number of reasons...primarily I think $$ related, in that Leica had become so expensive but also the first of the real fast glass was coming out...if you were going to have to ante up $6K for a 300 F2.8 for you Nikon you probably didn't have enough left over for the M6 personal camera, and I think a lot of photographers (pro) at that time just weren't seeing the difference between a work and play camera.

One blip came in the mid 90's. I sold a lot of Hasselblad X-Pans to pros who said they wanted something different for their personal camera and this was it. The sad thing was that many of them (and I think I sold 8-10 units to pros for this reason), a year later said they were just too busy and they (the X-Pans) were just sitting on the shelf.

 

I feel that this becomes a philisophical question to a degree. My feeling (which may be entirely wrong) after dealing with pros for 35 years is that in the past many pro photographers were real 'artists'...individuals who loved photography and decided to try and make a living out of it. After a week shooting in the studio they thought nothing of packing up the Leica on Sunday and heading out on a day shoot.

I found that, oh, maybe 15 years ago it started to become much more of a business. Students coming in to see me doing 'career research' instead of voicing how they wanted a job in which they could express their individuality...wanted to know what the hours were like and how much could they expect to make.

 

No....not many pros

(in my experience) shooting with an M for personal work.