guidomo Posted February 22, 2008 Share #61 Posted February 22, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) My guess is that his record in marketing and PR was just too bad. Think of all the blunders with M8 firmware releases, a crap website and the upgrade program being leaked by a dealer. In fact, I get the impression he did not handle the dealer network well and left them really pissed off - certainly that MeisterCamera (who were forced to change their name from LeicaBei Meister after pressure from Leica) sounded so. The PR stuff is certainly something that people expected someone like Lee to be good at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 Hi guidomo, Take a look here Steven K.Lee gone. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rwfreund Posted February 22, 2008 Share #62 Posted February 22, 2008 Perhaps it was the new website what did it. Jeff Clearly the final straw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted February 22, 2008 Share #63 Posted February 22, 2008 Perhaps it was the new website what did it. Jeff Na!, more likely the implication that the M8 may be upgradable to full frame while there isn't a hope in hell IMO they could get it to fit now or even into the future. I'm sure the idea of users upgrading their camera directly through Solms cutting out the dealers has not gone down well with the outlets causing a backlash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_tanaka Posted February 22, 2008 Share #64 Posted February 22, 2008 While I am surprised by the brevity of Mr. Lee's tenure I am not surprised by the action. I know nothing of Mr. Lee's style. But I do know (from personal experience) that German, Swiss, and Austrian companies have a strong aversion for being led by outsiders. They'll be polite and obedient (sometimes maliciously so). But like antigens their energies will not be at rest until the invader is ejected, deservedly or not. Still, I cannot say that I was encouraged by Mr. Lee's term. It looks like my remarks from a thread on the M8 section (copied below) might have a ring of accuracy. "No, the real issue that's beginning to emit fumes within, and about, Leica customer circles is trust. The most fundamental objective of the "digital M" product was to attract new generations of Leica camera customers to become loyalists to the brand, as their grandparents (and some parents) had become. But I can't avoid wondering if Leica's new young management hasn't grasped that those strong emotional customer allegiances were built upon peoples' trust in Leica's ethics. Leica's products were always relatively expensive. But people believed they were buying the best products of their kind. People trusted that Leica would not sell inferior products or craftsmanship. People trusted that Leica products and services, although costly, would be reliable excellent performers. People trusted that Leica's motives offered genuine value. The photographic community trusted the Leica brand. Even those who did not own a single Leica product rarely held forth any reason for such a deficit beyond financial issues. I don't think it's inaccurate or unfair to write that the first year of the "digital M" introduction has not been a complete success for Leica in terms of garnering and growing new admiration and trust in their brand. The general camera public's perception of the M8 is that it's an over-priced, flaky, and costly trinket for deep-pocketed dilettantes. Now this "upgrade" program begins to look like little more than a revenue harvest, the price of which could easily buy a far more versatile whole dslr starter kit. Leica's new Web site design further reinforces the growing perception that Leica is selling superficial style rather than craftsmanship and technical performance. As Guy and others have so often remarked in this lengthy thread, your decision to buy the "upgrade" is a matter of your sense of value and need. Nobody should be derided for ultimately choosing to pony-up and participate later this year. But the fact that only approximately 25% of this poll's respondents have indicated Yes, here in the heart of Leicaville, should be a cold alert to Leica's management. Whatever your personal plans may be it's clear that this is not a program that's playing out strongly in the early innings. In my opinion Leica would do well to take true stock of themselves from a broad external perspective as they draft development and marketing plans. The picture might not be what they have intended." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted February 22, 2008 Share #65 Posted February 22, 2008 Nothing is going to get scraped. Dr. Kaufman owns the company and he is very much behind all the decisions anyway going forward. If anything this maybe a good thing for the end user. Guy, no, disagree with you on this - you don't fire the CEO, especially not in way clearly calculated to send a message that he didn't do the right things, then continue that CEO's policies. I don't know what will change, and no doubt Leica will publicly claim that nothing will change, but watch this space for change.... Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 22, 2008 Share #66 Posted February 22, 2008 Sandy I see this as a personality issue far more than any work in progress issue. Let's face it Lee opened his big mouth on FF and Jack and i were at PMA and we mentioned it to them there CEO was quoted in a magazine. They were not real happy about that. But i don't want to speculate either and frankly something I am not even remotely concerned about. Dr. Kaufman is a good guy and he does not need anyone to run Leica , he can do it himself. Besides the folks running the M and R division are really nice folks , there young and bright and have a lot of great idea's. Even better they listen, this may just give them the freedom they need to implement some of the things we talk about better. There could be a upside to all of this and if anything I'm betting there will be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidomo Posted February 22, 2008 Share #67 Posted February 22, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Let's face it Lee opened his big mouth on FF IIRC it was Kaufmann himself who hinted towards a FF M way back last year, along the lines of "If you found a way to make a FF M, surely you would pursue that." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnguyen Posted February 22, 2008 Share #68 Posted February 22, 2008 Mr. Lee had sort predicted his exit in one of those LFI interviews abck then when he first started by saying if I'm around during Photokina 08....I assume Mr. Lee helped turn the company around and they don't need him anymore at this juncture. Leica should sell their stuff on line and bypassing all dealers like Zeiss. It's the dealers that's dragging Leica's feet... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 22, 2008 Share #69 Posted February 22, 2008 . I think we loyal customers deserve to be kept in the loop, and not third-party through some volunteer beta tester with a bad temper. Are you sure you are a new member? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 22, 2008 Share #70 Posted February 22, 2008 Dr. Kaufman is a good guy and he does not need anyone to run Leica , he can do it himself. Then why in the name of heaven did they appoint Lee in the first place? I'm sorry Guy, but this seems a very naive response. I'm guessing - just as everyone else is at this point in time <grin> - that part of the problem was Lee's announcement of perpetual upgrades to the M8 and the effect that would have on the dealer base. From the dealer's perspective this is very, very bad news. In effect once they'd sold a camera to someone that was it, unless the person bought a second body they'd never see them again except for lens sales, because no matter what updates were to be made they would all involve the camera being sent back to Solms. No possibility of the dealer selling the person an updated body, all updates could be retrofitted to an existing camera, so no more sales. Hence the glee expressed above by a dealer at Lee's departure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dseelig Posted February 22, 2008 Share #71 Posted February 22, 2008 First of all I love leica cameras most of my personal work since I was 20 and got my first m2 have done with leicas. The M8 has been a very mixed bag I echo those who saw the need to make better long term plans at the expense of short term profits. The upgrade is too high priced and you do not isolate yourself from your dealers. Some long term dealers in this country could not get gear as fast as some of the newer people in the buisness, this is wrong loyalty has to be respected. I hope Leica can right itself with good dealers better repair practices and better high iso and the upgrade to come down in price, make the upgrade avaible to repair people like DAG to put in, Let small leica repair shops become Leica warranty service so everything does not have to go to Germany. Do things like the old Leica schools. Have Leicas refurbs to sell to photo students at cost and maybe one lens as well. Many companies do this, mamiya and the whole group behind them have student cost cameras and lighting. DAvid Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 22, 2008 Share #72 Posted February 22, 2008 I assume Mr. Lee helped turn the company around and they don't need him anymore at this juncture Well, if someone's done a good job they don't get fired without notice and their boss take over the day to day running of the company. If the reason for Lee leaving was that he had turned the company around there's be a generous press release extolling his considerable virtues, a golden handshake, and best wishes for the future all round. That isn't what appears to have happened. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
razerx Posted February 22, 2008 Share #73 Posted February 22, 2008 If the termination of Lee results in a change of upgrade policy that new upgraded "M8-2" will be available to dealers then existing unsold standard M8's as well as the ones in our camera bags will drop in value as they should be in a normal digital market. Well then if anyone is on the fence about ditching their M8s' then today would be a good time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted February 22, 2008 Share #74 Posted February 22, 2008 It is very clear that Leica was being badly run. The fact that many of us purchased M8s despite the whole IR issue was very much an 'in spite of' rather than because, for example. A better run organisation would either have solved the problem without using filters or created a positive PR buzz about the extra sharpness resulting from not having an AA filter. A better organisation would not have let the fact that certain of their astonishingly expensive lenses are prone to backfocus turn into such a farago, with lack of clarity as to the exact technical reasons and total lack of ability to accurately calibrate new lenses before they entered the chain and an inability reliably fix those that are returned to Solms. The legion stories about repairs sitting on shelves for weeks, or being done badly, or sometimes not being done at all add to the impression that this hotbed of German engineering is actually a rather sloppily run outfit, working to less than legendary standards and with a lack of care and attention. The new website does rather seem to hint at a misunderstanding of the marketing positioning of the brand, and that marketing weakness has been evident in the Keystone Cops way in which press releases have been randomly leaked, or posted on the German section of the site rather than the other sections. There has also been a sloppy approach to such things as firmware updates, which have been released, withdrawn, inneffective, etc. The fact that Guy Mancuso and others here have had to focus the flow of information between Leica and its customers in both directions clearly shows that the company is either too provincial in its approach to such things, too historically hide-bound, or too sloppy. I could go on. I never owned a Leica before Nov 06 and I have been amused, amazed and sometimes profoundly shocked with the experience of just how badly the company is run. It is also astonishing just how blindly it has treated its dealer network, the lens discount being a prime example. And as a director of a public company myself, I can honestly say that the board of Leica had to take serious action at some point to clean up this mess. The $64,000 question is, 'was all this mess because of or in spite of Mr Lee?' Looks like we might soon find out. But there is one thing that Mr Kaufmann and his employees need to bear in mind if they are feeling relieved at no longer being managed by an outsider: it isn't Mr Lee who doesn't like the way things are done in Solms. It's the customer base. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 22, 2008 Share #75 Posted February 22, 2008 The conclusion is based on a speculative premise <grin> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 22, 2008 Share #76 Posted February 22, 2008 Panasonic isn't even among the best of second tier Japanese electronics companies, all they are good at are rice hookers, automatic toilet and noisy sensors. If it's Lee's plan to get rid of it, I'd give it a 10 just for this. People, it's the Leica moniker saving Panasonic's disastrous venture into digital camera business, otherwise, who would buy those crappy cameras? They were not all bad. I have had two - a Digilux 1 - dreadful but luckily a kind thief removed it from me after just one and a half months. Digilux 2 pretty good apart from dying twice in the first year and I sold the second new replacement on eBay. I bought my wife a CLux on the strength of my D2. It is a horrible little camera with the noisiest sensor I have ever seen. I assume the D3 has been a disaster, In the year and a half they have been out, I have yet to see one in a customer's hands. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted February 22, 2008 Share #77 Posted February 22, 2008 It would be appreciated if a bi-lingual member could keep us up-to-date with any developments in the similar thread running on the German side. (precis, obviously!) Thanks Our Teutonic cousins appear to be doing backflips for joy in their forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted February 22, 2008 Share #78 Posted February 22, 2008 If the termination of Lee results in a change of upgrade policy that new upgraded "M8-2" will be available to dealers . Already done. I heard on Wednesday that M8-2 will be sold from August as the standard product. A shutter 'option' will not be available on new M8's. That was always a nonsense approach for this low volume product. You can't look towards your aftermarket for mainstream sales income. No wonder the dealers were upset, the future of the M line had been completely undermined. Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 22, 2008 Share #79 Posted February 22, 2008 But there is one thing that Mr Kaufmann and his employees need to bear in mind if they are feeling relieved at no longer being managed by an outsider: it isn't Mr Lee who doesn't like the way things are done in Solms. It's the customer base. I couldn't agree more, Tim. I'm not speaking for Mr. Lee but for the record, all the stuff surrounding the M8 doesn't have much to do with him, right? S.K. Lee joined after the M8 was done and all he had to deal with was a mess. It would be an easy task to manage if the company has a perfect product to boot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 22, 2008 Share #80 Posted February 22, 2008 It is very clear that Leica was being badly run. Looks like we might soon find out. But there is one thing that Mr Kaufmann and his employees need to bear in mind if they are feeling relieved at no longer being managed by an outsider: it isn't Mr Lee who doesn't like the way things are done in Solms. It's the customer base. Tim Tim, I could not have put it better myself. 3 new lenses this past year - 2 out of 3 faulty. All sorts of unexplained "funny business" on my "new" M8. Two service/repairs on lenses with 100% failure rate. Hardly the sign of a well run company and there has not been much sign of recent improvement with my first example of the supposedly simpler to manufacture, new Summarit 75mm, being hopelessly out of focus. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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