M11 camera shake

[PaulJohn]

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Apologies first of all for not replying to an older thread but I decided a new thread would gain more traction. It appears that no-one has made this observation.

As a user of an M11, M10M and previously an M10 I was also having issues with M11 camera shake and have read a number of long threads debating solutions related to MP and bad technique.

It got me thinking, how could my technique be good on my M10 / M10M but not on the M11 even at higher shutter speeds then I had an epiphany (I've never had one before  )

Because the M11s shutter starts off open, the first click you hear is the shutter closing ready for the exposure. It then opens and closes to take the picture and finally resets in the open position for metering purposes.

Therefore you need to treat every photo like you are using a slow shutter speed. If you are using a slow shutter speed you will automatically compensate but if you are at 1/250 or above you will be less inclined to worry about good technique and your brain will think the job is done before the exposure cycle has been completed thus introducing the shake.

Take every photo as though you were shooting at 1/30 and your shake problems will disappear.

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[Steve Ash]

Is this good or bad news?

 

[elmars]

I don't think there is a different camera shake problem with the M11 than with the M10. You can't draw conclusions about a problem from the more complex shutter sequence.

Sorry for Your epiphany. 😃

[Viv]

49 minutes ago, Steve Ash said:

Is this good or bad news?

 

Yes.

[Derbyshire Man]

1 hour ago, PaulJohn said:

Apologies first of all for not replying to an older thread but I decided a new thread would gain more traction. It appears that no-one has made this observation.

As a user of an M11, M10M and previously an M10 I was also having issues with M11 camera shake and have read a number of long threads debating solutions related to MP and bad technique.

It got me thinking, how could my technique be good on my M10 / M10M but not on the M11 even at higher shutter speeds then I had an epiphany (I've never had one before  )

Because the M11s shutter starts off open, the first click you hear is the shutter closing ready for the exposure. It then opens and closes to take the picture and finally resets in the open position for metering purposes.

Therefore you need to treat every photo like you are using a slow shutter speed. If you are using a slow shutter speed you will automatically compensate but if you are at 1/250 or above you will be less inclined to worry about good technique and your brain will think the job is done before the exposure cycle has been completed thus introducing the shake.

Take every photo as though you were shooting at 1/30 and your shake problems will disappear.

I have to say I've had zero problems with camera shake on the M11 series, but you describe exactly how I approach it! As per a million posts, there isn't any greater tendency to camera shake other than the increased resolution can resolve smaller movements. 18mp will match the earliest cameras, 36mp the M10R and 60mp you need to imagine you're taking medium format shots but just with a smaller camera!

[lct]

Different approach here. I just set shutter speeds twice as fast as i used to do with earlier Ms. With auto iso i set shutter speeds to 1/(2f)s. I have steady hand though. Others may prefer 1/(4f)s as a precaution. Not a big deal but IBIS will fix this on the M12 hopefully.

[Tailwagger]

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3 hours ago, PaulJohn said:

Because the M11s shutter starts off open, the first click you hear is the shutter closing ready for the exposure. It then opens and closes to take the picture and finally resets in the open position for metering purposes.

For many I can imagine that you could be right as to the psychology involved.  That said, I feel obliged to again mention that there is nothing new in terms of the shutter sequence if one has had any experience with previous Ms and utilized live view or on-chip rather than reflective metering. 

[PaulJohn]

4 hours ago, Steve Ash said:

Is this good or bad news?

 

Both. The good news is that good technique will reward you. The bad news is that you need the good technique even when shooting at higher shutter speeds. You just need to be mindful that from the perspective of holding steady you need to use the same technique you would use for shooting at 1/30.

It would be interesting to know what the delay is between pressing the shutter and the exposure start time.

[PaulJohn]

3 hours ago, elmars said:

I don't think there is a different camera shake problem with the M11 than with the M10. You can't draw conclusions about a problem from the more complex shutter sequence.

Sorry for Your epiphany. 😃

But I did draw conclusions and they appear to work.

My epiphany is intact (at least until you explain the error of my logic)

[mekener]

One beer or one coffee too many and up to 1/250, otherwise 1/125 works just fine for me.😀 I'm left handed though so I could not get along with the grip. My right hand is a bit useless and it cramped my fingers. I have this weird grip that my left hand grabs almost the whole underside of the camera. Also the soft release button worked very well for me. Feels much easier, lighter to press the shutter button. On autofocus cameras the soft release is a nightmare for me...

[Jammy Dodger]

Your description of the shutter sequence is correct but this has nothing to do wit camera shake!

 

Any camera - more pixels makes clearer pictures harder to achieve as there are simple more pixels in a given area

[hdmesa]

9 hours ago, elmars said:

I don't think there is a different camera shake problem with the M11 than with the M10. You can't draw conclusions about a problem from the more complex shutter sequence.

Sorry for Your epiphany. 😃

All Ms before the M11 are just a short snap of the shutter. With the M11, one can inadvertently develop a bad habit of lowering the camera immediately after depressing the shutter while the shutters sounds are still operating. That can cause camera shake blur even with shutter speeds where we don't expect to see blur such as between 1/125 sec. and 1/500 sec.

[250swb]

Crikey, how much shake are you getting? Does it show up on a print seen from a normal viewing distance (relative to it's size)? If you have your nose against the glass quite literally you are not seeing the bigger picture, technique only needs to be 'good enough' to do the job in hand. So for street photography we understand as photographers there is some tolerance of DOF, focus distance, ISO, 'shake', poor lighting, extreme contrast, and a myriad of things that may not make the photograph perfect, but perfection in street photography can sap the power of the content and composition. If however you are a landscape photographer you'll most likely already own a tripod for which there is no substitute until Leica introduce IBIS into the M line. 

[tuna]

No camera shake here from my M11. Shooting normally at 1/60 or higher. Normal breathing technique when shooting 1/30 or 1/15 (though due to sensor sensitivity I rarely use these slower speeds with the M11). Same results overall as with my MP shooting film. My habits haven’t changed at all.

For me, the shutter thing and the high resolution thing hasn’t been an issue.

[marchyman]

On 10/10/2024 at 12:46 PM, Jammy Dodger said:

Your description of the shutter sequence is correct but this has nothing to do wit camera shake!

May not have anything to do with camera shake.  If you start moving the camera after the initial shutter close you can get images showing some shake if the camera is still moving when the shutter opens/closes to take the image.  I haven't a clue how long each step takes to know if that is something that could reasonably occur.  I doubt my reflexes are fast enough for this to be an issue, but I'm am old and slow.

Anyone with a high speed video setup who can measure the close/open/close/open cycle and put some timings to each phase?

[Leslie22]

Thought about it a lot when I first got the M11 a couple of years ago , decided to up my standard 50mm shutter speed to 1/250th , haven't thought about it since

[jaapv]

On 10/10/2024 at 10:29 PM, 250swb said:

Crikey, how much shake are you getting? Does it show up on a print seen from a normal viewing distance (relative to it's size)? If you have your nose against the glass quite literally you are not seeing the bigger picture, technique only needs to be 'good enough' to do the job in hand. So for street photography we understand as photographers there is some tolerance of DOF, focus distance, ISO, 'shake', poor lighting, extreme contrast, and a myriad of things that may not make the photograph perfect, but perfection in street photography can sap the power of the content and composition. If however you are a landscape photographer you'll most likely already own a tripod for which there is no substitute until Leica introduce IBIS into the M line. 

IBIS and tripods may be a cure for camera shake but not for motion blur which will be equally enhanced if one views 60 MP images at 100 % which as you rightly suggest is completely irrelevant for real-life photography. 

[lct]

Viewing 60mp images at 100% is completely relevant in PP to me.

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[01af]

Am 10.10.2024 um 10:48 schrieb PaulJohn:

... but if you are at 1/250 s or faster you will be less inclined to worry about good technique and your brain will think the job is done before the exposure cycle has been completed thus introducing the shake.

Sounds plausible to me.

My solution is to use the electronic shutter most of the time (except under fluorescent light).

[SrMi]

11 hours ago, marchyman said:

May not have anything to do with camera shake.  If you start moving the camera after the initial shutter close you can get images showing some shake if the camera is still moving when the shutter opens/closes to take the image.

Similarly, with M10, if you start moving the camera at initial shutter open and before it closes, you will get blurred images.

I never had any issues as I always wait for the shutter sequence to complete before moving the camera. The time to close the shutter and reopen for exposure is very short. 

I can see the issue with electronic shutter, though, as the readout is not that fast and people may move the camera while the sensor is still being read out.