Getting the colour right on the M11 {split-off thread}

[Rus]

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8 hours ago, colint544 said:

Given that everyone's monitors and eyes are calibrated differently, and that any image posted on this forum needs to be a brutally compressed jpeg, there's probably not a meaningful comparison here.

But this is what I see. A picture taken yesterday - ISO 80, 1/1000th F4, 28mm Summicron mk1. Colours straight from the camera in the first picture, and adjusted to my taste in the second. I perceive that as a slight magenta cast. I don't find it unpleasant, and it's easy to correct.

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This is exactly the same behaviour I have seen with my m11

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[R4p70r]

I am using Capture One Pro and with this I also see a magenta cast especially sunny days with blue skies. So it isn't a Lightroom only thing. 

I understand if users want a more neutral baseline especially for the JPG files if they do a job and the client want the image ASAP and you have to upload the JPG file instead e.g. media outlet, photo journalist or sports journalist. From a photographer standpoint they like to see Leica to step up their game and improve in that part or giving this as an option if they praise their product plus themselves so much as heritage of documentary photographey, legacy of photo journalism etc.   

Edited May 29, 2024 by R4p70r

[jonoslack]

5 hours ago, elmars said:

Copy 1 is the most neutral and because of that I would say it is the best starting point. That does not mean, that this is the most pleasing photo, the three others have more character.

As I said before: Leica should offer a choice between more Magenta ("Leica Look") and neutral.

Of course, we are making the assumption that clouds are a neutral grey (probably only sometimes) I still prefer the ‘sunny’ image - even though ‘cloudy’ would be more logical (as it was cloudy) - but that’s much too warm. I like Sean Reid’s view that the M11 is ‘cool’ and certainly reserve the right to warm it up!

I think it’s interesting that @don daniel‘s two pictures on the last page show very clearly the problem - I would quite agree that the road is a better colour in the corrected (second image), but the sky is definitely better in the first image - the second is much too cyan. The greenery is also marginally better in the first image . . . But the clouds are better in the second. It just isn’t very simple. 

I don’t have a problem with Leica offering a choice of white balances - presumably it would have to apply across the board (even to grey cards?). 

 

3 hours ago, lct said:

What raw converter are you using if i may ask?

Well, Adobe - and I think you have nailed it; the problem, such as it is, is not in the colour of the camera, but in the way the files are treated on conversion. 

I know several professionals who love the colour - but they are mostly doing photojournalism and commercial - people in fact, and whilst there were always complaints with previous M cameras about skin tones I’ve never seen a complaint about the skin tones on the M11. 

As far as I’m concerned, I’ll carry on shooting ‘daylight’ in the daytime and AWB in mixed artificial lighting. . . . . . But the number of times I actually modify the colour is really small. 

All the best

[kiwidad]

Leica, being a German company, didn't sell a camera with a "cast", they sold it with the intended color balance they chose. Some like it hot and some like it cold. Set your color balance by grey card and its a different world and one our eyes see differently! I might add the color balance in my left eye differs from my right eye. Before you comment I assume you have all color corrected your monitors to the "n"th degree and only view images in a color correct viewing environment right? is your monitor glossy or Matt and that makes a difference too! If its problem have the old guy etch a couple of percent off the cyan screen 🙂

[Knightspirit]

Haven't read every post on this thread - so maybe someone has brought it up - but there are certain lenses that can have a bit of a magenta cast (Zeiss 18mm F4 for example). Has that been considered? I personally don't see any cast from my M11 - i usually leave the white balance on auto. What I do see on occasion is a variance in the same images taken in succession - but I will often times point the camera somewhere else to get a different exposure - and half press the release to hold it - and then come back to my composition - thus sometimes changing the color balance along with the exposure (using Auto obviously). So many factors! Thank god for Lightroom. 

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, kiwidad said:

Leica, being a German company, didn't sell a camera with a "cast", they sold it with the intended color balance they chose. Some like it hot and some like it cold. Set your color balance by grey card and its a different world and one our eyes see differently! I might add the color balance in my left eye differs from my right eye. Before you comment I assume you have all color corrected your monitors to the "n"th degree and only view images in a color correct viewing environment right? is your monitor glossy or Matt and that makes a difference too! If its problem have the old guy etch a couple of percent off the cyan screen 🙂

There are some things beyond Leica's control, though, such as increased sensitivity to magenta at the sensor hardware level. I have a junk theory that some Sony sensors lean on pulling additional light from the near-IR spectrum in order to boost light gathering in general (to improve high ISO and DR scores). This is somewhat plausible given several of us have noticed the M11 Monochrom has a different spectral response to colors than previous Monochrom cameras. IIRC, samples showing the differences are available by subscription over at ReidReviews. If the M11 Monochrom has a unique spectral response, it's possible that the color M11 has its own color footprint so to speak.

Regardless, the M11 magenta sensitivity could be mitigated to most critics' satisfaction by simply adding a white balance shift function similar to what Fujifilm offers. That won't solve Auto WB issues, but it would be helpful for those of us who like to shoot with a fixed Daylight WB but find it to be too magenta.

Edited May 30, 2024 by hdmesa

[Pix.View]

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I use DXO to develop the DNG files from my M11 and I don't get any magenta tints. The colours are balanced.

 

I think the problem is Adobe's interpretation of the DNG files.

 

Why blame the M11?

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Pix.View said:

I use DXO to develop the DNG files from my M11 and I don't get any magenta tints. The colours are balanced.

 

I think the problem is Adobe's interpretation of the DNG files.

 

Why blame the M11?

Typically DxO does not read the embedded DNG “instructions” while Adobe reads and applies them in order to present files as Leica wants it. That may also be the cause of the differences observed. 

[lct]

2 hours ago, Pix.View said:

I think the problem is Adobe's interpretation of the DNG files.

Why blame the M11?

It is a good question i've been asking on this forum already and the reply i got, aside from the usual M11 bashing, is Leica would be somewhat responsible for its partnership with Adobe if i understand well. Not very convincing if you asked me. My feeling is Leica users can choose freely the software they prefer and in what one calls the Leica look there is a tendency to like oversaturated colors. To my eyes, this tendency translates into reds rather than magentas but it is a subjective matter and learning how to set white balance, rather than bashing the M11 or Leica, would be a better start IMHO.

Edited May 30, 2024 by lct

[elmars]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

I don’t have a problem with Leica offering a choice of white balances

Thank You!

vor 10 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

presumably it would have to apply across the board (even to grey cards?). 

Yes! But I think, grey card is neutral as with the eyedropper tool in Lightroom.

vor 10 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

As far as I’m concerned, I’ll carry on shooting ‘daylight’ in the daytime and AWB in mixed artificial lighting

So do I like in the good old film days. But..

vor 10 Stunden schrieb jonoslack:

it just isn’t very simple. 

I took some pictures to show the influence of the colour temperature and the tint. I photographed a grey card on grey concrete paving so that you can clearly see the deviation from neutral grey and, above all, so that you are not distracted by a colour idea for the subject, such as the idea of a warm colour tone for a sunny evening sky.

But this also shows the dilemma. Ultimately, it's not about depicting something neutrally, but about realising our image idea, which also includes colour mood. The M11 creates a certain colour mood or, with the magenta tint setting, pushes quite strongly in a certain direction. 

As I have often said: I usually like this, but there are many (too many) others who don't like it at all. That's why I think it would be best to have a choice.

I took the pictures this morning around 9.30. Once the ground was directly exposed to the sun, once it was in the shade. I took the photos with sunny, cloudy and AWB. The fourth image shows the white balance with the eyedropper tool in Lightroom.

This shows both the influence of the light and the influence of the magenta tint. The eyedropper tool in Lightroom balances both the light and the white balance setting.

Direct sun:

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Cloudy

Sunny

AWB

Lightroom neutral

Shade:

Cloudy

Sunny

AWB

Lightroom neutral

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, elmars said:

Thank You!

Yes! But I think, grey card is neutral as with the eyedropper tool in Lightroom.

So do I like in the good old film days. But..

I took some pictures to show the influence of the colour temperature and the tint. I photographed a grey card on grey concrete paving so that you can clearly see the deviation from neutral grey and, above all, so that you are not distracted by a colour idea for the subject, such as the idea of a warm colour tone for a sunny evening sky.

But this also shows the dilemma. Ultimately, it's not about depicting something neutrally, but about realising our image idea, which also includes colour mood. The M11 creates a certain colour mood or, with the magenta tint setting, pushes quite strongly in a certain direction. 

 

 

Several of your examples looked fine - and I think I still liked the 'sunny' best - but your point stands

On the other hand @colint544's sample from page 14 is Positively Purple - which was really what prompted me to do some drab cloudy sky pictures (I've linked it below( . . . 

Certainly I would find that acceptable (but of course it's easy to fix). 

I think the problem with your idea of a different WB setting that it would be really useful for some scenes . . . but not for others

I think we have digressed from the purpose of this thread! Interesting though

On 5/29/2024 at 10:09 AM, colint544 said:

Given that everyone's monitors and eyes are calibrated differently, and that any image posted on this forum needs to be a brutally compressed jpeg, there's probably not a meaningful comparison here.

But this is what I see. A picture taken yesterday - ISO 80, 1/1000th F4, 28mm Summicron mk1. Colours straight from the camera in the first picture, and adjusted to my taste in the second. I perceive that as a slight magenta cast. I don't find it unpleasant, and it's easy to correct.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

[jaapv]

It reminds me a lot of the results from my LUMIX S5 cameras in dreary conditions, especially the S5ii Maybe Leica  and Panasonic are cooperating in this department?  I understand that they did design the latest S5ii sensor together. It would explain the discontinuity in colour handling between the M10 and M11. 

[Smogg]

2 hours ago, elmars said:

Thank You!

Yes! But I think, grey card is neutral as with the eyedropper tool in Lightroom.

So do I like in the good old film days. But..

I took some pictures to show the influence of the colour temperature and the tint. I photographed a grey card on grey concrete paving so that you can clearly see the deviation from neutral grey and, above all, so that you are not distracted by a colour idea for the subject, such as the idea of a warm colour tone for a sunny evening sky.

But this also shows the dilemma. Ultimately, it's not about depicting something neutrally, but about realising our image idea, which also includes colour mood. The M11 creates a certain colour mood or, with the magenta tint setting, pushes quite strongly in a certain direction. 

As I have often said: I usually like this, but there are many (too many) others who don't like it at all. That's why I think it would be best to have a choice.

I took the pictures this morning around 9.30. Once the ground was directly exposed to the sun, once it was in the shade. I took the photos with sunny, cloudy and AWB. The fourth image shows the white balance with the eyedropper tool in Lightroom.

This shows both the influence of the light and the influence of the magenta tint. The eyedropper tool in Lightroom balances both the light and the white balance setting.

Direct sun:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Cloudy

Sunny

AWB

Lightroom neutral

Shade:

Cloudy

Sunny

AWB

Lightroom neutral

Thanks for the detailed testing!! The results were not unexpected for me; this is exactly the behavior of the camera that I complained about. Conclusion for me: don't shoot with M11 without a gray card

[jonoslack]

6 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well, writing a lot of hidden files would explain quite a few problems we have seen on the forum. And the discrepancy between people having those problems and those not. It can well be because of a difference in the card usage. 

Hi Jaap - yes, I think it probably does account for a lot of the problems - and of course startup issues can be because cards are hard to read. . . . for someone like me, who reformats the card (albeit in the camera) each time, it probably explains why I never had much of a problem.

Leica haven't claimed to fix all freezes, but this thread is beginning to look like they've done a pretty good job this time. 

[jonoslack]

2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

It reminds me a lot of the results from my LUMIX S5 cameras in dreary conditions, especially the S5ii Maybe Leica  and Panasonic are cooperating in this department?  I understand that they did design the latest S5ii sensor together. 

They certainly are co-operating, in this case it would seem that it's all to do with the instructions in the DNG files (rather than actually the sensor)

[jaapv]

And it would save a lot of resources to use the same Bayer filter…

[Smogg]

It’s not clear why Leica managed to do everything well with the Q3, but not with the M11. Lack of cooperation with Panasonic in the second case?

[jaapv]

Well, the Q is a completely different case as sensor and lens are finetuned to one another, as they form-together with the shutter- a single unit. Undoubtedly a different development team. 

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[elmars]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Smogg:

don't shoot with M11 without a gray card

If it is only the magenta tint that bothers you, it is sufficient to reduce the value in Lightroom to +10 to +12.

[Smogg]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well, the Q is a completely different case as sensor and lens are finetuned to one another, as they form-together with the shutter- a single unit. Undoubtedly a different development team. 

I haven't heard anyone complain about the magenta cast in the SL3, which is structurally closer to the M11 than the Q3. I don't have it, so I can't check it myself.