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Getting the colour right on the M11 {split-off thread}


KlausM10

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9 hours ago, jonoslack said:

That's really interesting - it sounds to me as if they have agreed to change the colour balance for people who ask for it - perhaps not such a stupid idea, I certainly won't be sending mine in as I love the colour I'm getting from it. 

I get it that some people don't like the colour from the M11 (fine - and it looks like Leica will deal with it). But I don't think there is any question of it being wrong, and I'm quite sure that most of the M11 users wouldn't dream of having it changed. 

I have a suspicion that your M11's sensor hardware is just better matched to Leica's default color reference values. Leica doesn't custom calibrate each camera like Hasselblad, so some M11 units may deviate far enough from the assumed color response to need an adjustment.

I think it's pretty cool that Leica was willing and able to do that for a customer.

Edited by hdmesa
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1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

I have a suspicion that your M11's sensor hardware is just better matched to Leica's default color reference values. Leica doesn't custom calibrate each camera like Hasselblad, so some M11 units may deviate far enough from the assumed color response to need an adjustment.

I think it's pretty cool that Leica was willing and able to do that for a customer.

Well, that is certainly possible. I wish that I knew more about this. I’ll see if I can do some research. 

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

Leica doesn't custom calibrate each camera like Hasselblad

I'm not sure about that. In the beta phase of the M11, some cameras were recalled because they had to be recalibrated due to changes in the white balance firmware.

Otherwise, you can always ask Leica if you want things changed (just don't expect it to be done quickly). For example, they once offered to recalibrate the light meter on my M10 because the pictures were too bright.

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14 hours ago, lldd said:

In this video the review (who owns both M11 and SL3) shot two photos side by side on each camera (at right around the 12:45 mark).  If both of these cameras share the same sensor, it seems clear that, let's just say, one of them is not like the other.   It would appear that the imaging chain between the two is not identical (and that may be the norm for two Leicas with the same sensor - I have no idea).  That said, the M11 clearly shows magenta, and it would be frustrating to use both cameras at an event and then have to color match them.

 

Colour matching is simply done by using an Xrite Passport. 

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7 hours ago, elmars said:

I'm not sure about that. In the beta phase of the M11, some cameras were recalled because they had to be recalibrated due to changes in the white balance firmware.

Otherwise, you can always ask Leica if you want things changed (just don't expect it to be done quickly). For example, they once offered to recalibrate the light meter on my M10 because the pictures were too bright.

It would be interesting to know for sure. I would assume that during the beta phase the calibration is being worked out, but the production phase is less unit-specific. If they do individually color calibrate each body, they should tout that in their marketing. 

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8 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Well, that is certainly possible. I wish that I knew more about this. I’ll see if I can do some research. 

Thanks, Jono. Could be I'm wrong as @elmars suggested – would be great to know for sure.

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

I think it's pretty cool that Leica was willing and able to do that for a customer.

I'm skeptical. I'd like to first see confirmation from the user that Leica has indeed calibrated a single camera to make the color balance less magenta-heavy. Regarding the review linked above, comparing the M11 and SL3 from 12:45 onwards, I have to say: He really shows the difference in color balance in that one image, which I also recognize between my M11 and cameras from other brands or other Leica models. However, I don't understand some of the things he does with his images. Sometimes, there's a filter applied from left to right that turns the sky into ugly cyan.

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14 hours ago, hdmesa said:

^ Sounds more like what Hasselblad does with their hardware-specific color calibration. Leica may be able to do this manually by request.

That would be awesome if Leica offers something similar like Hasselblad Natural Colour Solution (HNCS) for the M11, all the other current gen and future cameras. 
Every time I see those Hasselblad photos I am always in awe how beautiful those colours are.

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Posted (edited)

I will update as soon as I get the camera back. Yes, I am very happy that Leica has addressed the issue I am having with the camera. It would be possible that there are some M11 closer to Leica's profile and some are further off (like mine). Maybe it could also be a different sensor batch or something else. 

Something similar to HNCS would be great on Leica as well. I think it would be fabulous to have a whole system of cameras (all models) to have the same color response. So they can be used in a mixed setup and I get the colour Leica has intended. Another way would be to develop Leica Looks to be able to use in DNG as well, so we could set a default, which the user likes best. 

Edited by sebas_
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6 hours ago, R4p70r said:

That would be awesome if Leica offers something similar like Hasselblad Natural Colour Solution (HNCS) for the M11, all the other current gen and future cameras. 
Every time I see those Hasselblad photos I am always in awe how beautiful those colours are.

I think the Hasselblad approach also requires over a gigabyte of calibration maps to be stored in camera and read at every boot-up. I'm not sure the Leica M user would be ok with any further startup delays. Perhaps Leica could read such maps using a dedicated processor chip. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

I have got my Leica M11-P back from Wetzlar. In regards to WB I am very pleased. The strong magenta cast is gone from the Daylite WB ( as well as Auto WB in Daylite), but it does not change the overall M11 look. My guess is that there are some M11's out there, which deviate from the intended value. Which would also explain, why only some are complaining about the issue. 

Sadly I got still "File unreadable" and a new bug, which I haven't had before. I was testing a Summilux 50 and was changing the capture from f8 to f1.4. Camera on Auto ISO and Auto Shutter speed. Camera does not adjust the shutter speed, stuck with the f8 reading and all images with f1.4 are overexposed. Have adjusted the aperture several times back and forth, no change on the shutter speed -  happened twice within ca. 20 minutes, no clue what it caused. Seems Leica has made a deal with the wrong demon, when materialising the M11. 

Below is Auto WB with a SEM 21. Quite happy how the WB is handling now. 

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Edited by sebas_
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