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Getting the colour right on the M11 {split-off thread}


KlausM10

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1 hour ago, elmars said:

It was private conversation with Jono, who knew from the known photographer. We both were in contact with Leica about this topic but with different opinions.

Nothing personal, but if the only supporting basis for the so-called magenta cast is private conversations and hearsay, i'm all the happier that Leica didn't change anything to colors.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb colint544:

I think this is likely a baked-in feature of the M11 sensor, and no firmware update will change that.

No, it is a matter of white balance (tint) and white balance ist widely a matter of taste.

vor 54 Minuten schrieb BillCB:

Do those who see a magenta cast see it when using  AWB - or on every colour balance setting?

The amount of magenta tint varies using AWB, in fixed balance settings it is +20 to +22 in LR. Far more than Nikon has as default for example.

vor 48 Minuten schrieb lct:

Nothing personal, but if the only supporting basis for the so-called magenta cast is private conversations and hearsay, i'm all the happier that Leica didn't change anything to colors.

I do not take away Your happiness and I personally can live with this magenta cast. Often I like it. But in my opinion it is not a good starting point for a DNG, that should be more neutral. A bit less tint (about +10 or +12 in LR) would satisfy all of the magenta cast haters, who are more sensitive to magenta than many others here.

There were many big discussions about the magenta cast. For those who don´t know them here the link to one:

 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, elmars said:

I do not take away Your happiness and I personally can live with this magenta cast. Often I like it. But in my opinion it is not a good starting point for a DNG, that should be more neutral. A bit less tint (about +10 or +12 in LR) would satisfy all of the magenta cast haters, who are more sensitive to magenta than many others here.

Perhaps it is a matter of words but you seem to present the "magenta cast" as a fact, which it is not. It is just an opinion that i don't share personally or, more exactly, i could share it if you said that the color cast your complaining about is visible with Adobe software but not with some others. As for the starting point you're referring to, again it is a matter of taste. Mine would simply have a bit less red (not magenta) saturation.

Edited by lct
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1 hour ago, ELAN said:

After a year and half with the M11 I shelved it because of the magenta cast (and the shutter thing) and went back to the M10-R where AWB is almost always perfect, day and night. I miss the M11 features (and Leica missed an M11-P sale) but I refuse to live with tweeting WB/Tint on most shots.  

So tweak the camera profile and save as default. 

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30 minutes ago, elmars said:

No, it is a matter of white balance (tint) and white balance ist widely a matter of taste.

The amount of magenta tint varies using AWB, in fixed balance settings it is +20 to +22 in LR. Far more than Nikon has as default for example.

I do not take away Your happiness and I personally can live with this magenta cast. Often I like it. But in my opinion it is not a good starting point for a DNG, that should be more neutral. A bit less tint (about +10 or +12 in LR) would satisfy all of the magenta cast haters, who are more sensitive to magenta than many others here.

 

. . . and then the skin tones would be just as ruddy as they were with all the previous M cameras! 

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They also changed the AWB later to improve mixed light situations on the M8. Quite a big difference, as I recall.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

HI There 

I suppose I'd better chip in here!

Changing the colour output of a camera a couple of years after release is a sure fired recipe for infuriating all the photographers who have been working with  the current output and developed a workflow to get what they want. 

No - we didn't refer to a 'magenta cast' because we don't consider there is one . . . . but we did discuss it, because others (including Elmar) have.

 There was a great deal of conversation about this on the beta forums - and privately as well. 

I actually don't think that there is a magenta cast - but colour is so subjective and difficult and there is no denying that there is often a big + value in the magenta in Lightroom. . . . . but that's a figure used to balance the colour - I'd say the M11 needs more. 

All the previous M cameras have had real issue with skin tones, especially with older people, the M11 is the first one not to have this problem . . . . . . added to which skies with almost all cameras are a nice cyan colour . . . . but the ones above my head aren't, and nor are the ones in shots from the M11. I think the reason other cameras get this wrong is that most people prefer their skies a bit more cyan!

I don't shoot AWB in daylight, because it's inevitably a crap shoot - there isn't a right answer, just a lot of different Averages - depending on the scene - shooting a fixed white balance means that all your shots in daylight are the same - and you can change them afterwards if you want to. 

Leica work very hard on the colour on their cameras, but they very  very rarely change it after release, this isn't because they are lazy or they don't care, but because there will be thousands of photographers who have got used to the new camera and sorted out a workflow and presets which gives them what they want . . . . . changing things might make a few people happier, but it will certainly irritate all the people (like me and others) who are actually very happy with the colour as it is!

I'll reiterate, I think the M11 has the best skin tones and the best skies of any M camera . . . . . . . . but of course that's just my opinion!

All the best

 

 

Thankfully cooler heads prevail...so far. What's that old Henry Ford saying about giving customers everything they ask for? 😉 

On another note, I ran M11 files that could be seen with any Adobe color profiles to push a magenta cast through DaVinci Resolve's Vector Scope. The scope actually plotted a Cyan push not Magenta. Given the proximity of these two colors, I can understand why some of us think we see magenta. 

Likewise, I found DXO Photolab 6 or 7 do not always push the Tint values on M11 processed files like Adobe Profiles do. Which leads me to think Adobe exacerbates the "magenta" cast by running hot on the Tint values, something super simple to alleviate, but part of the blame falls on Adobe IMO. 

Edited by LBJ2
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Posted (edited)

I’m a firm believer in the ‘no such thing as sooc colour’ but Leica is the only major camera manufacturer that has such obvious colour differences in its dng files across different bodies of different generations. If they released jpeg profiles where we could select the colours from all the digital cameras of yesteryear it could be a lot of fun.

 

Edited by costa43
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vor 25 Minuten schrieb jonoslack:

I'll reiterate, I think the M11 has the best skin tones and the best skies of any M camera . . . . . . . . but of course that's just my opinion!

... as soon as the white balance has been corrected which was not necessary most of the time with the M10-R – agreed! 😀

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I find it quite strange some users have no issues with magenta cast with their firmware and many others do.  My two former M11 variants certainly did have a magenta cast to the DNG files that needed correction.  I never have issues with color casts in the M10, M10-R and certainly has most excellent color for DNGs.  The same with the SL2-S, the color is IMO the best ever followed by the M10-R.  The mystery remains, why do some have color issues and others not?   The color should be consistent if the firmware is all the same.  So this may lead to something with how the M11 sensors were initially calibrated at the factory.  

Last and a second thought not related to the color, is circuit board replacement.  Many board components are made in foreign countries and assembled on one board in a factory.  In the past, I believe Jenoptic makes the circuit boards for Leica albeit that may have changed over the years.  I wonder how many of Leica cameras "might" have counterfeit components that do not meet standards?  This leads to board failures.  This was discovered to be true in a good number of US defense related projects a few years ago and caused the government to change the source of components to be made in the USA.  Just something to ponder along with the color issue.   r/ Mark  

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7 minutes ago, don daniel said:

... as soon as the white balance has been corrected which was not necessary most of the time with the M10-R – agreed! 😀

Okay, I’ll bite. I’m very old, and so are lots of my friends (sad old bastards). But even with young people I always had to adjust the red channel to get skin tones right with the M10-R.

Landscape colours were lovely (but I still think too cyan). 
 

with the M11 the skin tones are lovely, and I’m yet to reduce the magenta tint in Lightroom - even for landscapes!

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45 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I don't shoot AWB in daylight, because it's inevitably a crap shoot - there isn't a right answer, just a lot of different Averages - depending on the scene - shooting a fixed white balance means that all your shots in daylight are the same - and you can change them afterwards if you want to. 

I remember having this discussion with Jono years ago - I think it was on the SL(601) release.  We were discussing the challenges with using AWB, and agreed that the best approach was to select a fixed Kelvin setting and adjust in post.  From my experience, every Leica digital has had a slightly different colour balance, presumably due to the sensors.  Leica spends a lot of time trying to get the colours right, but it still varies with each release.

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vor 14 Minuten schrieb jonoslack:

with the M11 the skin tones are lovely, and I’m yet to reduce the magenta tint in Lightroom - even for landscapes!

Just so I understand correctly: You like the output of the M11 better than that of all other Leica models (M, Q, and SL)? Right? I also find the image quality of the M11 absolutely top-notch, but I have to work for it. Well, I can live with that.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb jonoslack:

No - we didn't refer to a 'magenta cast' because we don't consider there is one . . . . but we did discuss it, because others (including Elmar) have.

The baby needs a name. For some it is a magenta cast, for some it the right magenta tint.

vor einer Stunde schrieb jonoslack:

Leica work very hard on the colour on their cameras, but they very  very rarely change it after release, this isn't because they are lazy or they don't care, but because there will be thousands of photographers who have got used to the new camera and sorted out a workflow and presets which gives them what they want . . . . . changing things might make a few people happier, but it will certainly irritate all the people (like me and others) who are actually very happy with the colour as it is!

Yes!

vor einer Stunde schrieb jonoslack:

I'll reiterate, I think the M11 has the best skin tones and the best skies of any M camera

Yes, although the M10 was not bad.

vor einer Stunde schrieb jonoslack:

Changing the colour output of a camera a couple of years after release is a sure fired recipe for infuriating all the photographers who have been working with  the current output and developed a workflow to get what they want. 

Another yes! BUT (and we discussed this several times): Skin tones and a practised workflow are not everything. Many M11 photographers are dissatisfied because the tint is too magenta for their shots or taste. That's why I've always argued that Leica should give users the choice between two or maybe even three alternatives/flavours. Nikon, Fuji and others do this.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Okay, I’ll bite. I’m very old, and so are lots of my friends (sad old bastards). But even with young people I always had to adjust the red channel to get skin tones right with the M10-R.

Landscape colours were lovely (but I still think too cyan). 
 

with the M11 the skin tones are lovely, and I’m yet to reduce the magenta tint in Lightroom - even for landscapes!

Of course, I understand that color perception is largely subjective. But I don't see any problems with AWB on the Q3, which has the same sensor. I see problems only with M11, which often (but not every time) gives a noticeable magenta cast. If we assume that this is a problem with my eyes and the AWB of M11 is normal, then the AWB of Q3 is not normal and magenta cast should be added to Q3 and to X2D too 😂

Edited by Smogg
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