I’m ready to buy a Leica — Leica SL series or Leica M series? — help me decide?

[ravp]

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Hello, I’m close to buying a new Leica. Trying hard to make the right decision. All options remain on the table, but I’m leaning towards a SL2-S or SL3. I made the decision to go Leica about a year ago. At the time, I was excited. I thought it’d be easy. Little did I know. The good thing is: it’s been a year. I’ve used that time wisely, I hope, to consider a lot (reading posts, watching videos, and trying out different cameras). I’m almost there. But before I pull the trigger again (more about that in a moment), I’d love to get some input, so if you have any thoughts to share … I’m all ears!

A little about me:

I’ve got a good amount of life experience and been a photographer for many years. Over the past decades I’ve shot Nikon film cameras & different mirrorless cameras including Fuji, Sony and Ricoh. I enjoy shooting landscapes, city buildings and some street in the endless pursuit of creating photographic art.

I have a passion for B&W. So much so that after nearly a year, I made the decision to purchase a “like new” Q2 Monochrom. Unfortunately, it had debris in the viewfinder that I found distracting so I returned it. The experience was a good one because it caused me think even deeper about my commitment level and what I really want. They say the Leica Q’s are the “gateway drug” in the Leica world and I now see why. Yeah, even after a very short time with one.

I’m someone that would be very happy with a Monochrom only camera. I shoot 90% B&W (at least), and the ability shoot at night with very high ISO’s with a camera that doesn’t have a bayer filter, and noise that looks more filmic is a very attractive proposition. If I missed color, I could always carry my trust Ricoh GRIII

I Ruled Out a Leica Q

I’ve ruled out another Q camera for several reasons, with the biggest being that I’ve got some wonderful vintage lenses and want to use them on a Leica (rather than continue using them on my Sony I think).

Maybe a M11 or M10 Monochrom?

I thought an M11 monochrome … or maybe an M10? … was the answer but I’m not sure a rangefinder’s for me. I mean I LOVE the look. Truly. It’s … beautiful. But I love shooting fast lenses. The rangefinder focusing … nice … but when it comes to focusing some lenses like a f/0.95 or even f/1.2 on a rangefinder … I want an EVF for critical focus. Sure, there’s a great external EVF for the M11 … and I’d be fine with buying that if I needed to, but in my opinion, it kinda messes with the whole rangefinder aesthetic to have to put that on the hot shoe. Also, I’ve heard more than one person talk about their rangefinder’s going out of alignment - and needing to be sent back in for recalibration. I’ve also read about freezing issues some have said they’d experienced with their Leica M11’s on this forum. On top of that, I like to focus CLOSE sometimes (not macro but down to 3/4 or 1/2 a meter) with my vintage lenses … I’ve can do that with an adapter on my Sony A7RIVa with vintage m mount lenses that normally wouldn’t be able to focus that close but would not be able to do that when using them on a Leica M. That frankly is a big deal (for me).

Leica SL-2S or SL3?

So that’s led me to consider a Leica SL-2s or maybe a SL3?

Pros:
Ability to convert M lenses and focus close using M to CL adapters. Check
Built-in beautiful EVF. Check.
More affordable than a Leica M11 Monochrom - check
No calibration needed.

Cons:
No monochrome sensor in sight. Sigh.
It’s so … BIG!! The M11 looks so much more inviting.
Big Red Dot & Big Leica in big white letters … sheesh! I so prefer the look of the monochrom cameras. Discreet. So tape it up and cover up the dot I guess is the solution there.
Perhaps not the best for street? More suited for studio than street?

In conclusion:

• At the end of the day - is a Leica SL2s and/or SL3 worth spending thousands of dollars more - or should I just stick with my 60 megapixel Sony A7R-IVa and call it a day?
   
• Has anyone upgraded from the SL2-s to the SL3 .. .and if so, was it worth it? And why?
   
• Has anyone owned both a Leica M10/M11 along with a Leica SL series camera and if so, which do you prefer and why?
   
• Anyone move from a Leica Monochrome camera to the SL line ? Any regrets?

Thoughts and/or Recommendation would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

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[Sandokan]

Hey RavP from RavB

Good clear explanation above - and it sorts of gives you the answer: SL

the rangefinder does not excel at landscape nor architecture and the viewfinder is not as detailed as the SL finders. This makes the SL much easier to use with vintage glass and even with Leica M lenses. 

I own M10M, M11P and the original SL which I have no wish to upgrade to SL3. Horses for courses. The M's are slightly smaller and lighter and the lenses are much smaller. The AF on SL lenses is good enough and portrait lenses like 75 f2 are fast enough for fashion if not for sport. 

[darylgo]

Leica makes a macro adapter for the m. 
The evf 2 tilts 90 degrees, very useful in many situations.  You may need one of each, an M and an SL. 😁

Welcome to the forum. 

[mokona]

and why not SL2-S and M246 monochrom? you can have both for less than the cost of a single SL3.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

SL3. No doubt.

First I have all the cameras you’re comparing. (SL2 instead of SL2-S) So I’m comparing directly.

1. It’s 130 grams heavier than an A7R5. In real world use the lens you strap to the front is what makes the difference.

2. Tri-resolution. Want to shoot SL2-S resolution. No problem. 60MP. Also no problem.

3. For now you can creat a b&w profile for import to your raw processor but even in DNG only Leica’s do write the *Leica look* information into the file. So you can have a b&w preview and that carries over to the Fotos app. A few of us are pushing Leica to have this also read by Adobe and C1, like the Fujis.

4. PDAF. DO you want to shoot manual focus all the time. Mostly you can completely replace your Sony A7R4. All the excellent Sigma glass is in L mount and then there’s the APO Summicrons…. A bit of casual sports? The 100-400 is excellent and focuses nice and quick on the SL3.

5. Punch in focus was removed from the SL2-S with the joystick. Leica promised to bring it back but it hasn’t happened yet. It’s there on the SL3 though. On the SL2 you need to program a button or the rear dial.

6. The SL3 is 70 grams lighter than the SL2-S. It feels more than that because the grip moved closer to the centre of gravity. It doesn’t feel any heavier than my A7R5 although it is.

7. The Sl2-S is end of line. The SL3 is new so there’s going to be upgrades coming. Leica is pretty good at this.

8. The flippy screen.

Gordon

[Almizilero]

As I made the journey from Sony (A1) to Leica about 2 years ago (with the original Q as the gateway drug), I'll put in my two cents. I now have the SL2, SL2-S and the M10. Wonderful tools for photography, all of them. None offer the technical perfection (mostly: fast, reliable AF) that Sony does, but the photographical process and the results are much more satisfying!

I use the SL bodies for “work”, that is portraits and stage photography. The M is my everyday companion for street, holidays, travel, I just take it everywhere.

So, from what you said, I'll give the same advise as all the others. Get an SL! Not neccessarily the SL3, keep considering an SL2-S. They are dirt cheap at the moment on the used market. You should be able to get a body and one of the excellent APO lenses used for the price of a new SL3. Can't beat that! And the Leica logo is blacked out   The only thing you should consider, coming from the A7R, is if you need the MP. I found that 24 is enough for all of my needs, and in the rare cases I need more, the SL2-S files work very well with the modern AI resolution magic of Lightroom and Photoshop.

[Photoworks]

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well, you are all over the spectrum.

I would suggest you keep the Sony. and maybe add something to get you started.

from what you shoot, I would say, a small camera that you can take to different places.

I work with SL3 and SL2 cameras, but to me, they are too heavy for everyday carry.

I carry the m11 on my shoulder with an extra lens in my pocket and I get all the shots I am looking for.

You talk about. Noctilux 0.95. I use it all the time on my M11 and I love it, but it is not something I would take all the time, heavy and big. Considering that do you want to spend 25k to get you started with the M11 and 0.95 and another lens that is smaller?

Leica makes a 50 and 35 close focus and a 35 APO that goes even closer without the need of a close focus adapter. there are rings in between lens and camera to get closer, but talking recently with the nocti-girl, there are closeup lenses that are easier and quicker to use, like the +1 +2 +3 sets and ELPRO.

[frame-it]

10 hours ago, ravp said:

I thought it’d be easy. Little did I know.

it is easy, just get one of each

[KenTanaka]

Quite a lucid, informative portrait you’ve painted of your interests and background!
When I distill this portrait to its essential elements I come to only one conclusion: within the Leica system an M body would best suit you. To maximize your potential enjoyment while minimizing your financial risk I’d suggest an M10, although the M11 is the current model.

I write this as a current owner of the Q2, Q3, M11-P, and SL3 cameras, and a long-time follower in these product lines.

I wish you great enjoyment in whatever you choose.

 

Edited April 22, 2024 by KenTanaka

[Smogg]

The Leica M11 has a great feature that the SL2-S and SL3 lack: exposure preview only when you press the shutter button halfway. For me, this is one of the deciding factors in favor of the M11, besides the enjoyment of using the rangefinder. If sometimes I use on M11 liveview and the rear screen in aperture priority mode (I usually shoot in aperture priority mode and use highlights metering), I always see a bright image that makes it easy to compose, and the correct exposure is quickly and easily checked by half pressing the shutter button. On a sunny day on SL2, SL3 you will have difficulty seeing the image on the screen if you underexpose to save the bright areas

[Jeff S]

I own the M10 Monochrom and M10-R (both RF only, with 28/35/50 FLs), and SL2. Apples, oranges and grapefruit. Never use them together.
 

Only way to decide IMO is to try and see.  Some, for instance, bond with the RF experience; some don’t.  Specs and videos don’t address user preferences regarding size, weight, ergonomics, controls, use of new or third party lenses, eyesight and viewing comfort, etc. 
 

My advice: start slowly and deal with one option at a time that you think will address your highest priorities.

Jeff

[costa43]

Usually I would suggest the decision to be based on the shooting experience you prefer as the M is all about the experience, but in this instance, there is a benefit to the M If you print b&w and it’s your real passion. The output from the monochrom M10 or m11 is hard to beat. (My personal fave is the original monochrom but that’s more emotional than logical) These cameras deliver a tone that is difficult to replicate with a colour camera imo and with the last two iterations, the iso performance and acuity is higher than an sl3 and sl2s converted to monochrome. As a b&w aficionado, you also benefit from the restriction of not being able to shoot colour.

The SL on the other hand makes focusing fast lenses a breeze, the evf is a pleasure and you see a black and white image in real time. You also have the option of using an autofocus lens which is weather sealed. Not to mention video and telephoto options, and let’s not forget you can shoot in colour too in a pinch if needed. Overall it’s a far more versatile option and the weight when adapting lenses is a non issue, it’s only when you strap on a big beast of an sl lens that it becomes cumbersome, again, subjective of course but my view. 

 

 

[ravp]

11 hours ago, KenTanaka said:

Quite a lucid, informative portrait you’ve painted of your interests and background!
When I distill this portrait to its essential elements I come to only one conclusion: within the Leica system an M body would best suit you. To maximize your potential enjoyment while minimizing your financial risk I’d suggest an M10, although the M11 is the current model.

I write this as a current owner of the Q2, Q3, M11-P, and SL3 cameras, and a long-time follower in these product lines.

I wish you great enjoyment in whatever you choose.

 

Thank you, that was very kind of you to say.

I'm very much still considering an M body, especially given it's much smaller lenses.

[ravp]

On 4/22/2024 at 9:22 PM, costa43 said:

Usually I would suggest the decision to be based on the shooting experience you prefer as the M is all about the experience, but in this instance, there is a benefit to the M If you print b&w and it’s your real passion. The output from the monochrom M10 or m11 is hard to beat. (My personal fave is the original monochrom but that’s more emotional than logical) These cameras deliver a tone that is difficult to replicate with a colour camera imo and with the last two iterations, the iso performance and acuity is higher than an sl3 and sl2s converted to monochrome. As a b&w aficionado, you also benefit from the restriction of not being able to shoot colour.

The SL on the other hand makes focusing fast lenses a breeze, the evf is a pleasure and you see a black and white image in real time. You also have the option of using an autofocus lens which is weather sealed. Not to mention video and telephoto options, and let’s not forget you can shoot in colour too in a pinch if needed. Overall it’s a far more versatile option and the weight when adapting lenses is a non issue, it’s only when you strap on a big beast of an sl lens that it becomes cumbersome, again, subjective of course but my view. 

 

 

You echoed some of thoughts that I've been having over the last few days. The tonality of the monochroms. The high iso performance. If I go the M10M/M11M route, my plan would be to get a VisoFlex EVF for critical focus. And there's the smaller form factor of the M's that's so attractive. In contrast, I recently paired my Sony with a 20mm f/1.8 lens to photograph some WWII planes (note to self: use polarizer), but the weight of it took some of the fun out of it for me. I'm thinking if I go the SL route there will be that temptation to weigh myself down with heavier lenses. Like you said, more versatile.

 

[ravp]

16 hours ago, Photoworks said:

well, you are all over the spectrum.

I would suggest you keep the Sony. and maybe add something to get you started.

from what you shoot, I would say, a small camera that you can take to different places.

I work with SL3 and SL2 cameras, but to me, they are too heavy for everyday carry.

I carry the m11 on my shoulder with an extra lens in my pocket and I get all the shots I am looking for.

You talk about. Noctilux 0.95. I use it all the time on my M11 and I love it, but it is not something I would take all the time, heavy and big. Considering that do you want to spend 25k to get you started with the M11 and 0.95 and another lens that is smaller?

Leica makes a 50 and 35 close focus and a 35 APO that goes even closer without the need of a close focus adapter. there are rings in between lens and camera to get closer, but talking recently with the nocti-girl, there are closeup lenses that are easier and quicker to use, like the +1 +2 +3 sets and ELPRO.

You raise some good points. I have a small take-anywhere camera now (a Ricoh) that I love. I think if go the M route, I'd could keep the Sony or get a Lumix.

No, I wouldn't be buying a Noctilux. I already own a f/0.95 "Noctilux clone" and yep, it too is very heavy and not something I frequently carry. For new lenses, I was thinking of something rather modest like a Voigtlander Ultron 35mm f2 ASPH or maybe a Voigtlander Nokton Classic 40mm f/1.4 (I like its character, size and price). I also have a close focusing Voigtlander 35mm f/1.2 but it's not small.

[ravp]

12 hours ago, Smogg said:

The Leica M11 has a great feature that the SL2-S and SL3 lack: exposure preview only when you press the shutter button halfway. For me, this is one of the deciding factors in favor of the M11, besides the enjoyment of using the rangefinder. If sometimes I use on M11 liveview and the rear screen in aperture priority mode (I usually shoot in aperture priority mode and use highlights metering), I always see a bright image that makes it easy to compose, and the correct exposure is quickly and easily checked by half pressing the shutter button. On a sunny day on SL2, SL3 you will have difficulty seeing the image on the screen if you underexpose to save the bright areas

Hey, thank you so much for mentioning that! I didn't know the SL2/3 lacked that feature. Certainly be nice to have. I strive to protect my highlights and I'm not shy about using exposure comp when need be.

Edited April 23, 2024 by ravp

[SrMi]

12 hours ago, Smogg said:

The Leica M11 has a great feature that the SL2-S and SL3 lack: exposure preview only when you press the shutter button halfway. For me, this is one of the deciding factors in favor of the M11, besides the enjoyment of using the rangefinder. If sometimes I use on M11 liveview and the rear screen in aperture priority mode (I usually shoot in aperture priority mode and use highlights metering), I always see a bright image that makes it easy to compose, and the correct exposure is quickly and easily checked by half pressing the shutter button. On a sunny day on SL2, SL3 you will have difficulty seeing the image on the screen if you underexpose to save the bright areas

It helps to set iDR to high.

[Pelu2010]

Hey, 

I would test the cameras extensively before buying. 

Is there a Leica shop nearby? 

But when I am truthful; it does not matter.

you can buy any camera, test it and if you don’t like> give it back.
 

 Cheers Peter 
 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Musotographer]

When I sold my M10 to buy an M10 Monochrom I also bought a cheap SL as my colour, backup and 'everything else' camera. I have never warmed to it; it's big, heavy, clunky and ugly and my experience of the EVF was not better than the 020 Visoflex I already had for the M10, which I happily used for vintage glass, R lenses, a Noctilux, occasionally long lenses and so on.

The SL is a workhorse and it gets the job done, and no doubt the SL2 & 3 variants are improvements,  but for me it was never a pleasure to use, so last week I sold it (along with my beautiful silver M9-P) and bought an M10-R and I couldn't be happier. I find a rangefinder (with occasional use of an EVF) to be a much more instinctive, pleasureable camera to use - we're all different, so I think you need to try both types as extensively as possible and see how they work for you. If you decide for an M you don't need to shell out for an M11 - the M10 variants are all marvellous cameras and the basic M10 can be got relatively cheaply. Good luck!

Christopher

[pf4eva]

On 4/22/2024 at 2:33 AM, ravp said:

Hello, I’m close to buying a new Leica. Trying hard to make the right decision. All options remain on the table, but I’m leaning towards a SL2-S or SL3. I made the decision to go Leica about a year ago. At the time, I was excited. I thought it’d be easy. Little did I know. The good thing is: it’s been a year. I’ve used that time wisely, I hope, to consider a lot (reading posts, watching videos, and trying out different cameras). I’m almost there. But before I pull the trigger again (more about that in a moment), I’d love to get some input, so if you have any thoughts to share … I’m all ears!

A little about me:

I’ve got a good amount of life experience and been a photographer for many years. Over the past decades I’ve shot Nikon film cameras & different mirrorless cameras including Fuji, Sony and Ricoh. I enjoy shooting landscapes, city buildings and some street in the endless pursuit of creating photographic art.

I have a passion for B&W. So much so that after nearly a year, I made the decision to purchase a “like new” Q2 Monochrom. Unfortunately, it had debris in the viewfinder that I found distracting so I returned it. The experience was a good one because it caused me think even deeper about my commitment level and what I really want. They say the Leica Q’s are the “gateway drug” in the Leica world and I now see why. Yeah, even after a very short time with one.

I’m someone that would be very happy with a Monochrom only camera. I shoot 90% B&W (at least), and the ability shoot at night with very high ISO’s with a camera that doesn’t have a bayer filter, and noise that looks more filmic is a very attractive proposition. If I missed color, I could always carry my trust Ricoh GRIII

I Ruled Out a Leica Q

I’ve ruled out another Q camera for several reasons, with the biggest being that I’ve got some wonderful vintage lenses and want to use them on a Leica (rather than continue using them on my Sony I think).

Maybe a M11 or M10 Monochrom?

I thought an M11 monochrome … or maybe an M10? … was the answer but I’m not sure a rangefinder’s for me. I mean I LOVE the look. Truly. It’s … beautiful. But I love shooting fast lenses. The rangefinder focusing … nice … but when it comes to focusing some lenses like a f/0.95 or even f/1.2 on a rangefinder … I want an EVF for critical focus. Sure, there’s a great external EVF for the M11 … and I’d be fine with buying that if I needed to, but in my opinion, it kinda messes with the whole rangefinder aesthetic to have to put that on the hot shoe. Also, I’ve heard more than one person talk about their rangefinder’s going out of alignment - and needing to be sent back in for recalibration. I’ve also read about freezing issues some have said they’d experienced with their Leica M11’s on this forum. On top of that, I like to focus CLOSE sometimes (not macro but down to 3/4 or 1/2 a meter) with my vintage lenses … I’ve can do that with an adapter on my Sony A7RIVa with vintage m mount lenses that normally wouldn’t be able to focus that close but would not be able to do that when using them on a Leica M. That frankly is a big deal (for me).

Leica SL-2S or SL3?

So that’s led me to consider a Leica SL-2s or maybe a SL3?

Pros:
Ability to convert M lenses and focus close using M to CL adapters. Check
Built-in beautiful EVF. Check.
More affordable than a Leica M11 Monochrom - check
No calibration needed.

Cons:
No monochrome sensor in sight. Sigh.
It’s so … BIG!! The M11 looks so much more inviting.
Big Red Dot & Big Leica in big white letters … sheesh! I so prefer the look of the monochrom cameras. Discreet. So tape it up and cover up the dot I guess is the solution there.
Perhaps not the best for street? More suited for studio than street?

In conclusion:

• At the end of the day - is a Leica SL2s and/or SL3 worth spending thousands of dollars more - or should I just stick with my 60 megapixel Sony A7R-IVa and call it a day?
   
• Has anyone upgraded from the SL2-s to the SL3 .. .and if so, was it worth it? And why?
   
• Has anyone owned both a Leica M10/M11 along with a Leica SL series camera and if so, which do you prefer and why?
   
• Anyone move from a Leica Monochrome camera to the SL line ? Any regrets?

Thoughts and/or Recommendation would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

Get both in a form of SL 601 and M240(P/M)