IIIf loose take-up spool spindle question

[BriBek]

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Greetings —

Lots of lurking here over the years has provided me with immense amounts of information, but I can’t find anything on this, so here goes.

I’ve had a IIIf for about 30 years, though I’ve probably only put 100 or so rolls through it (my regular shooter is an M6). All of the negatives shot in the IIIf were lab processed and so I did not recognize this issue until I decided to scan my negative archives and, seeing full frames more clearly for the first time, recognized that this has been the case since I’ve had the camera.

I took the accompanying photograph today. The frame is skewed — when the camera is held horizontally the most noticeable defect is in the upper right corner; in this one in the lower right — and so I thought this must be because of some misalignment of the film transport.

When I took the film out I examined the spindle under the film advance knob that holds the take-up spool and found that this has play in it, a looseness that permits it to move about 2mm in any direction. I never noticed it before because when I load the camera I place it top down on a table and so the advance knob and that spindle is held in place by the weight of the camera.

So, what I was hoping to receive guidance on is about the play in that spindle, whether it is supposed to be there in the first place, which I doubt, as it seems to implicate the gears there, and whether it could account for any skewing of the film. Also, if this is something that I might be able to repair myself (I am competent to handle minor repairs, though I have never worked on this camera beyond removing the case to retrieve some chipped film a long time ago).

Other than that the camera works perfectly. Frame spacing is quite narrow, however, but whether that is typical of the IIIf transport or a symptom of this problem I have no idea.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Brian

 

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[david strachan]

Hi Brian

My advice is put it in for a CLA (clean lubricate adjust).

Everything will be right then  for film winding, and it will feel remarkably smoother and just more lovely to use.

All best

.

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[Pyrogallol]

If the camera is working ok then don’t worry about it. There are other discussions about films not perfectly aligned or sprocket holes showing on the edge of negatives. Consider it part of the “character” of an old Leica.

Some take up spools can be loose or so tight you have difficulty pulling it out. The shaft the take up spool fit on will appear to have some wobble and not be tight.

Frame spacing can vary between cameras and will be narrower with wide angle lenses and wider with longer focus lenses, because of the angle of light projected from the rear lens element past the metal frame immediately in front of the shutter blinds.

Edited April 18 by Pyrogallol

[nitroplait]

@BriBek I think it is probably just normal behavior. Here’s how a frame is placed on the film strip if using a modern film cartridge in a Leica II:

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You can either roll your own film into FILCA cassettes or put a little spacer on the top of the lock on the baseplate to lift the commercial cassettes a little - or simply think of it as a charming signature of the camera. 

Edited April 18 by nitroplait

[250swb]

My IIIf does it sometimes, I can't say I've thought about it enough to try and work out why but if anything it can start out with tilted frames but then straightens up. If you have any books about Bresson that show not only the black boarder but also the sprocket holes encroaching into the image you'll see it was normal back in the day that the film can tilt. Perhaps like many of us he was using 'modern' pre-loaded film cassettes?

[TomB_tx]

Two points:

The wobble in the take-up spindle is intentional by design, to allow it to center on the spool. If it were guided tightly on the top plate is could bind with slight misalignment of the spool.

Most IIIf & IIIg should work fine with standard film cassettes instead of requiring a FILCA, because Leica added an alignment probe to the baseplate that fits into a milled channel in the body and holds the bottom edge of the film from sliding down past the rails.

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However, I have one IIIf that can't use that baseplate as it doesn't have the milled channel for it to fit. That camera is actually an upgraded older model, but it shows there can be some IIIf cameras in the wild that can't use the baseplate with the probe. Also, the IIIc baseplate will fit the IIIf - but don't have the probe, so baseplates may have been switched in prior lives.

[Anbaric]

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Some previous discussion of alignment issues in the thread below, together with potential workarounds like using washers to compensate for the slightly shorter standard modern cassette. Even without the 'pusher' shown by TomB_tx, this seems to be much more of an issue with some cameras than with others.

 

[250swb]

3 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

Two points:

The wobble in the take-up spindle is intentional by design, to allow it to center on the spool. If it were guided tightly on the top plate is could bind with slight misalignment of the spool.

Most IIIf & IIIg should work fine with standard film cassettes instead of requiring a FILCA, because Leica added an alignment probe to the baseplate that fits into a milled channel in the body and holds the bottom edge of the film from sliding down past the rails.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

However, I have one IIIf that can't use that baseplate as it doesn't have the milled channel for it to fit. That camera is actually an upgraded older model, but it shows there can be some IIIf cameras in the wild that can't use the baseplate with the probe. Also, the IIIc baseplate will fit the IIIf - but don't have the probe, so baseplates may have been switched in prior lives.

Thank you for that explanation, it makes sense to me know, one of my IIIf's is using a Leicavit and it doesn't have the alignment prong! 

[TomB_tx]

6 minutes ago, 250swb said:

Thank you for that explanation, it makes sense to me know, one of my IIIf's is using a Leicavit and it doesn't have the alignment prong! 

Good point! I have a Leicavit also, but have only used it with FILCA, so never noticed. Since there were a lot of IIIc in use when the Leicavit was introduced, it made sense to keep it compatible with them.