Michel3 Posted March 19 Share #1 Posted March 19 Advertisement (gone after registration) Don't get me wrong, I love the rendering of the M240! It's the reason I bought that camera despite having plenty others. What I like most is the grainy picture, say iso3200 or 6400, with a sharp lens like the Voigtlander 50mm APO. The only problem I have that I don't like is the banding that occur in the dark areas. Is someone have a way of getting rid of the banding, ideally without necessarily sacrificing all the grainy feeling. I already know well the Denoise tools like DxO PureRaw and Lighroom AI Denoise. These are working well for removing noise...But that's not exactly what I'm looking for here. There's so many post-processing tools available, I can't know them all so maybe there's one for that exact problem? Like Cornerfiix for heavy vignetting/purple corners... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 19 Posted March 19 Hi Michel3, Take a look here Any innovative techniques for removing banding in M240 RAW files?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted March 19 Share #2 Posted March 19 The best is to address the problem a the source and use ETTR. Grain can always be added in postprocessing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel3 Posted March 19 Author Share #3 Posted March 19 Just now, jaapv said: The best is to address the problem a the source and use ETTR. Yes of course it help a lot with extreme iso to give the max exposure but banding really depends on content and tonality. In the dark flat areas, it shows even without pushing exposure further in post. That's the part I look at getting better results. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 19 Share #4 Posted March 19 If you are pushing exposure say three stops in the shadows at ISO 6400 you are in effect using ISO 50.000 That is really far too much for a sensor of the generation of the M240. Of course you will get severe artefacts like banding. Fixing in post-processing is near impossible, unless you attack the areas with a blurring brush, which will remove the grittiness you strive for at the same time. If you insist on using this high-ISO technique, the best you can do is use DXO for raw conversion, and move the resulting DNG into your preferred program for further processing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel3 Posted March 19 Author Share #5 Posted March 19 53 minutes ago, jaapv said: If you are pushing exposure say three stops in the shadows at ISO 6400 you are in effect using ISO 50.000 That is really far too much for a sensor of the generation of the M240. Of course you will get severe artefacts like banding. Fixing in post-processing is near impossible, unless you attack the areas with a blurring brush, which will remove the grittiness you strive for at the same time. If you insist on using this high-ISO technique, the best you can do is use DXO for raw conversion, and move the resulting DNG into your preferred program for further processing. Not sure I follow you on the analogy of iso 50k...I didn't say that I want to push more than the iso 6400 on camera setting. In fact, I tend to go the opposite by bringing the dark areas even darker in post so it made the banding less obvious. The part about the blurring bush is more what I'm looking for. Maybe someone some place had manage to create a tool that do that...well? Even if I try to follow on innovative stuff since 30+ years, there's so many new stuff all the time that, maybe, I missed something! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted March 19 Share #6 Posted March 19 The more you add extra 'things' in post processing the more you are stretching the histogram and the more you are likely to introduce banding where the tonal range breaks down. Take it easy, use a TIFF file to post process, save at each stage, and don't throw the kitchen sink as well as the dishwasher into the mix all at the same time. An image at the ends of ISO performance needs gentle coaxing, not a sledgehammer, but ideally don't end up with that image in the first place 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
radialMelt Posted March 19 Share #7 Posted March 19 Advertisement (gone after registration) Nik Tools Dfine (formerly Nikon, than Google, and now DxO) is extremely efficient at removing banding artifacts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 19 Share #8 Posted March 19 1 hour ago, Michel3 said: Not sure I follow you on the analogy of iso 50k...I didn't say that I want to push more than the iso 6400 on camera setting. In fact, I tend to go the opposite by bringing the dark areas even darker in post so it made the banding less obvious. The part about the blurring bush is more what I'm looking for. Maybe someone some place had manage to create a tool that do that...well? Even if I try to follow on innovative stuff since 30+ years, there's so many new stuff all the time that, maybe, I missed something! ISO in a digital camera is nothing more than amplification of the sensor output. If you underexpose at a certain ISO value and then pull up the shadows the only thing you are doing is increasing the amplification and thus the ISO value So expose the shadows at ISO 6400 and opening up the shadows three stops is exactly the same as exposing at ISO 50.000. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Brown Posted March 19 Share #9 Posted March 19 Banding and the green hued shadows were the biggest reasons (next to tiny buffer) I sold my M240 and got the two M10s - the P and the R. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/373517-a-solution-for-high-iso-banding/ https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/237405-high-iso-banding/ https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/314762-246-banding-how-much-is-normal/ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel3 Posted March 20 Author Share #10 Posted March 20 2 hours ago, Al Brown said: Banding and the green hued shadows were the biggest reasons (next to tiny buffer) I sold my M240 and got the two M10s - the P and the R. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/373517-a-solution-for-high-iso-banding/ https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/237405-high-iso-banding/ https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/314762-246-banding-how-much-is-normal/ Thanks! I'm downloading Nik tools right now. From the other threads, it's seems a good solution to try. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel3 Posted March 20 Author Share #11 Posted March 20 3 hours ago, radialMelt said: Nik Tools Dfine (formerly Nikon, than Google, and now DxO) is extremely efficient at removing banding artifacts. Thanks. I'm gonna try that right now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel3 Posted March 20 Author Share #12 Posted March 20 Well it looks like Nik 6 Dfine is what I was looking for. Just made some test with iso 3200 to 6400 files and results seems as good as it's supposed to be : no banding while keeping the noise almost film like. I'm gonna test it for few weeks before commiting to buy but seems a small expense compared to exchanging the M240 for an M10! Thanks everyone for the help. That's what forums are all about. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Brown Posted March 20 Share #13 Posted March 20 5 hours ago, Michel3 said: seems a small expense compared to exchanging the M240 for an M10! With that exchange you get so much more and every penny’s worth, but everybody has to come to that realization themselves. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel3 Posted March 21 Author Share #14 Posted March 21 (edited) On 3/20/2024 at 2:33 AM, Al Brown said: With that exchange you get so much more and every penny’s worth, but everybody has to come to that realization themselves. You're certainely right by saying that there's much more to the M10 than just the absence of banding at iso3200! I think it's worth to explain why I bought the M240 in the first place despite there are the M10 and M11 available. I deliberately choose the M240 because I'm tired of the over the top tech that goes in the cameras now. I work as a pro photographer for 30+ years now. I use tools which are unbeliveable in terms of performances with 30fps or more with AF which can follow cheetah going for antelope and files big enough for applications nobody needs. I bought the M240 exactly because it was not that. I wanted a camera which was near the M3 and M4P I had 25 years ago but was unwilling to go as back as use film cameras. A small camera with a small 35mm lense and a telemeter that can help me get different images that the one I get with my «like everybody else» cameras. During my career I always tried to be off the path. When everybody is using a 70-200mm, I put a wide lens and, maybe, I will see something in a different way. So why I choose the M240 vs M10? Because the «analog feeling» seems better for me when I compared the files. About the cost, I am able to go for an used M10 but the thing I don't like is to be nervous about gear. That camera and 35mm I bring it everywhere, everyday. Until recently I was using a Fuji X-Pro2 with a 23mm lens. It's my personal camera and hope it will become like a friend! When I don't work, I'm not comfortable having with me a camera kit that have the value of a car. That said, between the M10 and the M240, both could be good friend with me haha. I hope your M10P and M10R are becoming friends with you in your quest of pics you love making. Sotheby's photographic prints auction around 1997. ( Leica M3 or M4P with Summicron 35 or 50 on Tri-X film) I don't remember how much that print had been sold but it's Martin Munkacsi Three Boys at Lake Tanganyika. The picture Henri Cartier-Bresson considered the realisation for him that «photography can fix eternity in a moment». Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited March 21 by Michel3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/391121-any-innovative-techniques-for-removing-banding-in-m240-raw-files/?do=findComment&comment=5120918'>More sharing options...
Al Brown Posted March 21 Share #15 Posted March 21 (edited) For me, the M10 in 2017 was the first digital M where Leica finally got it right. I remember when they shipped it over from Wetzlar for a loaner, I had a job in Morocco to do. I was so impressed I never looked back. It was not about new tech at all, it was the interface, the menu, the bigger viewfinder, the better buffer, the stability… Edited March 21 by Al Brown 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 25 Share #16 Posted March 25 On 3/19/2024 at 8:15 PM, Michel3 said: The only problem I have that I don't like is the banding that occur in the dark areas. Is someone have a way of getting rid of the banding, ideally without necessarily sacrificing all the grainy feeling. I already know well the Denoise tools like DxO PureRaw and Lighroom AI Denoise. These are working well for removing noise...But that's not exactly what I'm looking for here. Neither do i. My only tip is never push exposure in PP. Here M240 at 6400 iso with no NR software. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/391121-any-innovative-techniques-for-removing-banding-in-m240-raw-files/?do=findComment&comment=5131817'>More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.