Which SL to use for digitising slide photographs?

[SJCoates]

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Hi all, newbie here to digital photography; I have an R6.2 with a brace of lenses and am looking to move to digital with the SL, I am just not sure which one to go for; SL, SL2 or SL2-S. I plan to get the L to R adapter to use my R lenses as they really are fantastic - all ROM - last version of the 28/2.8, 50/2, 100/2.8 apo and 105-280/4.2.

Having done a bit of research, I think for my photography the SL(601) or SL2-S will do nicely as I understand the main difference is the 24 or 47MP sensor won't matter too much for me. However I am also looking to digitse my slide collection - the slide photos I have were taken with Velvia 50 and Kodachrome 25/64 so obviously really high quality film. To do this I am wondering about getting a ightbox and use the 100 macro to photograph them with the digital camera; in which case, would the higher sensor of the SL2 be better? In other words, if I was to photograph them with the digital camera, would the photos I get be good for decent sized prints? Or would a dedicated slide scanner be better?

Another area where I will be using the camera is with taking photos of fine art canvases, whch are quite large, 20 inches across, to be used for reproducing them up to A3 size. Interestingly, we have had some really good results with using a very basic digital camera with 10MP so I don't think this should be too much of an issue!

Another question I have, how is the aperture controlled? Does the lens ring still operate this, or is this controlled by the thumb wheel on the camera? As I mentionned, my lenses are all ROM, although I do have a 2x converter that isn't ROM that I hope to use as well.

I am sure there are many more questions I will have, but these will do for now!

Incidentally for someone used to, and satisfied with the simplicity of the R6.2, the SL seems light years ahead! I haven't done any photography for ages and really looking back to get into the fold.

Edited January 30 by SJCoates

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[Photoworks]

Since i have scanned over 30k film images in the last few years, and have tested different techniques i would say use a good camera and a good lens that does macro. A scanner is ok, but will not have the color dept of a DNG file from the Sl2.

I am using SL2 and used few different macros, the most use lens is the 100 Macro 2x Laowa. But there is a new 100 Macro from Panasonic that can do 1:1

Both capture one and lightroom have plugins to edit negative film. 

[jaapv]

I wouldn't worry too much about resolution and film scanning - this is basically trying to get orange juice from an apple. In practice, I would say from Internet research that the 24 MP sweet spot we seem to have reached now is more than ample to get an excellent scan out of about any film. But they were saying that when 10 MP was a killer resolution as well...

[dkCambridgeshire]

Novoflex slide duplicator enables efficient workflow – especially when digitising lots of slides. Use the camera's live view magnification for accurate focus 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0cwX2jTiwI

The duplicator's rails fit all older Novoflex focusing rack models – it's not necessary to buy the latest Novoflex rack / stage  

When using R lenses on e.g., the SL601 or SL2 via an R to L adapter, aperture control is 'manual' via the lens aperture ring. 

 

Edited January 31 by dkCambridgeshire

[dkCambridgeshire]

If using the 100mm APO Macro R lens 'by itself' it will not reproduce a slide image at 1:1 magnification. The dedicated Leica Elpro 16545 is matched to the R 100mm APO Macro lens and enables a reproduction ratio of 1.1:1 – which when copying slides, will fill the frame with mounted slide's 'slightly cropped' image area – and with none of the slide mount showing.

A mounted slide's image area is not 24mm x 36mm – it's slightly smaller. The Elpro 16545 plus 100mm APO Macro combination's 1.1x magnifacation, crops out the slightly visible perimeter of the slide mount. 

Edited January 31 by dkCambridgeshire

[davidmknoble]

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13 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Since i have scanned over 30k film images in the last few years, and have tested different techniques i would say use a good camera and a good lens that does macro. A scanner is ok, but will not have the color dept of a DNG file from the Sl2.

I am using SL2 and used few different macros, the most use lens is the 100 Macro 2x Laowa. But there is a new 100 Macro from Panasonic that can do 1:1

Both capture one and lightroom have plugins to edit negative film. 

A few comments.  First, scanners are incredible as are digital cameras for digitizing film and slides.  However, it depends on several factors.  The Nikon Coolscan series does a tremendous job on negatives in part because of the resolution and the light source. Both work together so using an SL2S or SL will not provide the best results unless you have the right light source.  I use the Negative Supply system for 120 film.

https://www.negative.supply

I also believe you may do better to wait for the SL3 (rumored to be very soon) which is also rumored to have the M11 sensor.  The SL2 does not have near the dynamic range of the SL2S.  I currently use the M10M or the M11 with the M APO 50 lens and the macro adapter, but with the 99 CRI light source underneath.

I have been scanning black and white negatives since 2002 with the Nikon Coolscan and with the wheel attachment I do the entire roll hands off while I eat dinner.  The negative supply system requires hands on, but it takes a few minutes to do an entire roll.  

I also use a substantial collection of R lenses with the SL system and you are correct it is incredible.  The APO 100 f/2.8 with the ELPRO adapter on front is a great macro lens.  IMHO, wait for the SL3 and you will be much happier for much longer… but get the right light source underneath your negatives / slides or it won’t matter what system you use.

[davidmknoble]

This is not full resolution, but it is a 120 neg scan using the Negative Supply system and the M10M with APO 50mm summicron and M macro adapter.  The light source was the 99 CRI LED. (Ilford FP+ 125, 120mm film with a Hasselblad 38mm super wide body CF version = old).

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Edited January 31 by davidmknoble
Added camera / film info.

[BernardC]

16 hours ago, SJCoates said:

However I am also looking to digitse my slide collection - the slide photos I have were taken with Velvia 50 and Kodachrome 25/64 so obviously really high quality film. To do this I am wondering about getting a ightbox and use the 100 macro to photograph them with the digital camera; in which case, would the higher sensor of the SL2 be better? In other words, if I was to photograph them with the digital camera, would the photos I get be good for decent sized prints? Or would a dedicated slide scanner be better?

It seems counter-intuitive, but you need higher camera resolution to scan grainy film. Velvia and Kodachrome should be OK with a 24MP camera in multi-shot mode. That's because film grain has a similar frequency to your camera sensor. Note that multi-shot wasn't available on the SL, but both SL2 models have it.

[Stuart Richardson]

I scan as part if my lab, and I compared the SL2 to my X5 (used to be a 20000 dollar scanner), and they are pretty close for 6x7. The X5 is better to use, but you will find the SL2 to be great for scanning if you set it up right. That means a darkened room or masked off area, good light source and very stable support. Try to use the e shutter and/or multishot. The SL2 is better for this work than the SL2S. Resolution is important for scanning. Not because you are going to necessarily pull much more detail, but to properly resolve the grain as Bernard noted. Also, anything larger than 35mm needs a lot more resolution. If you never intend to print larger than 8x10 or 11x14 or put it on the web, then 24mp is fine. The general room with scanning though is do it once at a high enough resolution not to have to do it again. 
 

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

A few comments.  First, scanners are incredible as are digital cameras for digitizing film and slides.  However, it depends on several factors.  The Nikon Coolscan series does a tremendous job on negatives in part because of the resolution and the light source. Both work together so using an SL2S or SL will not provide the best results unless you have the right light source.  I use the Negative Supply system for 120 film.

https://www.negative.supply

I also believe you may do better to wait for the SL3 (rumored to be very soon) which is also rumored to have the M11 sensor.  The SL2 does not have near the dynamic range of the SL2S.  I currently use the M10M or the M11 with the M APO 50 lens and the macro adapter, but with the 99 CRI light source underneath.

I have been scanning black and white negatives since 2002 with the Nikon Coolscan and with the wheel attachment I do the entire roll hands off while I eat dinner.  The negative supply system requires hands on, but it takes a few minutes to do an entire roll.  

I also use a substantial collection of R lenses with the SL system and you are correct it is incredible.  The APO 100 f/2.8 with the ELPRO adapter on front is a great macro lens.  IMHO, wait for the SL3 and you will be much happier for much longer… but get the right light source underneath your negatives / slides or it won’t matter what system you use.

I didn't want to post a long text, but here are a few options I am doing differently.

1. I use a studio Elinchrom flash with a plexiglass diffusion as a lightbox. the benefit is that it uses exposure ISO 100 at 1/125 and f11, I can shoot this during a day or night and no external light will influence the frame. The color is always consistent. you can speed up exposure and scan true un uncut roll.

Negative supply makes good film holders for 35mm and 120 film and there are some other one. these days few other companies make more affordable options that keep the film flat and well-masked.

I suggest not including film perforation on your 35mm scan, only causes issues of light blooming and reflection in the lens when negatives are exposed densely.

I have a few scanners here for Nikon, Minolta, and Imacon. the challenge with scanners is the hard light source, it is ok for slides, but for negatives, the light is supposed to diffuse a little in the enlarging processes. The speed of preview and scan is much slower by a big factor. 

i find the camera RAW file to TIFF 16bit from the scanner to have more control over exposure, color, and dust. I have to do multiple exports of exposures to blend and mask in Ps. In some cases, there is no other way to do that.

For processing the Negatives I would suggest a plugin for Lightroom called " Negative Lab Pro"

For the question of SL2, SL2s , SL3 or medium format: 35mm film has a limited resolution, 24mp is good for 35mm but if you have larger film 47mp is better. The multi-shot on the SL2 was just a waste of time, I didn't see any difference. Medium format is nice, but I had the challenge of finding a macro lens for 1:1 or more for 35mm film
The dynamic range of the cameras is very similar if you keep your ISO at 100. shooting at a higher setting will reduce the DR, but keep in mind that Negative film is quite flat and does not have all that contrast, it is a little different for slide film.

I would think in a few months the SL3 is coming, if you want to wait. Leica stores are taking preorders.

[BernardC]

29 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

Medium format is nice, but I had the challenge of finding a macro lens for 1:1 or more for 35mm film
The dynamic range of the cameras is very similar if you keep your ISO at 100. shooting at a higher setting will reduce the DR, but keep in mind that Negative film is quite flat and does not have all that contrast, it is a little different for slide film.

I've been using my S-006 for 35mm scanning. The lens I use is an enlarging lens (50mm) in reversed position. That's probably not relevant for others, since I already had a Hasselblad bellows and slide holder, which made this kit easy to assemble by adding a Hasselblad-to-L39 lens adapter.

Going the other way is easy. A friend has been scanning 4x5 negs with a normal camera and and old 55mm macro lens. The quality is good enough for cataloguing, although he prints in the darkroom so the scans aren't used for big prints.

Most legacy 35 camera systems had "slide copy" accessories, which are now dirt cheap. Novoflex still makes them.

You should also look at the Valoi system (valoi.co), which has been recommended in the film forum. Their kit includes everything you need, except for the camera, macro lens, and light source. Any light source will do. I use a light table, but an evenly illuminated white wall, or a computer monitor displaying a blank page are also good. The light source is completely out of focus, it doesn't need to be perfect, but it should be reasonably close to white for colour film.

Slide film usually has a gamma above 1.0 (higher contrast than the original scene), with a dynamic range of around 8 stops (density 0 to 2.1 on a log10 scale). That's easy enough to capture with any modern digital camera. Negatives tend to be closer to 0.6 gamma, so they'll be a bit flat when you scan them. I find it's still OK, but it could be marginal if your negatives are especially low in contrast, or underexposed.

[davidmknoble]

+1 on Negative Lab Pro (I use it in Capture One).  Thanks @Photoworks for reminding me.

As a side note, I am able to use the M10M to capture the 120 negative with reasonable detail for the sensor size (same with M11). But I would expect a loss for anything larger than a 120 negative without a larger sensor.

I agree low ISO is a must for dynamic range (the M11 is ISO 64 and a strong dynamic range).  I use an f/stop of 5.6 on the APO 50 because it is such a great lens, you don't need to stop down more and my kit is well leveled so I don't have DOF problems.  That is important for duping with a camera - the entire system must be parallel and level with the film plane.

I am sure this is the way of the future as film scanners (unless you go with the $20k drum scanners) are so specialized, that using a digital system makes plenty of sense.

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, davidmknoble said:

+1 on Negative Lab Pro (I use it in Capture One).  Thanks @Photoworks for reminding me.

You can try Micheal Wilmes plugin for Capture one, I use it to capture the frame and see the initial conversion
Analogue Toolbox for Capture one is at vers. 0.76 and it free

It is good for basic color and quite good for BW. 
NLP is slow, but gets colors a little better in some negative.

 

[AZN]

22 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

+1 on Negative Lab Pro (I use it in Capture One).  Thanks @Photoworks for reminding me.

According to their website NLP is Lightroom only?

https://www.negativelabpro.com/download/

Have they finally released a C1 version?  (Great news if they have!)

21 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Analogue Toolbox for Capture one is at vers. 0.76 and it free

I tried this and found that doing it by hand in C1 was much faster and produced better quality conversions.  YMMV of course.

[BernardC]

Similar tools are available in other/open raw processing software. I like RawTherapee's Film Negative tool. It's very quick for black and white, where you can create a preset for a film/processing combination and apply it to  every image. It is more complicated for colour because there are no presets. You can set a white balance based on a grey card sample, but that's only convenient for new shots. The rare times I scan colour it's an old negative and the balance has to be corrected for every image.

[davidmknoble]

5 hours ago, AZN said:

According to their website NLP is Lightroom only?

I answered too quickly, I use the analog toolbox.   My fault

 

[theseahawk]

Researching whether to use my SL2 or M10R for scanning 35mm and 120/220 negatives and slides. 
 

I have an Urth M42-to-M adapter and will test my old SMC Takumar f4 50mm macro. Not liking the feel of that adapter on the M nor how it disables the rangefinder for regular shooting.
 

The more simple approach of using the SL2 with either the Laowa 100mm f/2.8 2X Ultra Macro APO or the Panasonic Lumix S 100mm f/2.8 Macro is appealing. 
 

What do folks use for stands? Would any allow use of Arca-Swiss plates?

 

[tomasis7]

On 1/31/2024 at 5:13 PM, BernardC said:

I've been using my S-006 for 35mm scanning. The lens I use is an enlarging lens (50mm) in reversed position. That's probably not relevant for others, since I already had a Hasselblad bellows and slide holder, which made this kit easy to assemble by adding a Hasselblad-to-L39 lens adapter.

Going the other way is easy. A friend has been scanning 4x5 negs with a normal camera and and old 55mm macro lens. The quality is good enough for cataloguing, although he prints in the darkroom so the scans aren't used for big prints.

Most legacy 35 camera systems had "slide copy" accessories, which are now dirt cheap. Novoflex still makes them.

You should also look at the Valoi system (valoi.co), which has been recommended in the film forum. Their kit includes everything you need, except for the camera, macro lens, and light source. Any light source will do. I use a light table, but an evenly illuminated white wall, or a computer monitor displaying a blank page are also good. The light source is completely out of focus, it doesn't need to be perfect, but it should be reasonably close to white for colour film.

Slide film usually has a gamma above 1.0 (higher contrast than the original scene), with a dynamic range of around 8 stops (density 0 to 2.1 on a log10 scale). That's easy enough to capture with any modern digital camera. Negatives tend to be closer to 0.6 gamma, so they'll be a bit flat when you scan them. I find it's still OK, but it could be marginal if your negatives are especially low in contrast, or underexposed.

I want to ask about the reversed enlarger lens and Hasselblad bellows and slide holder. Do you have any photos of them? How do you mount a reversed enlarger lens? Im planing to get a copy of Nikon Es2 kit (for 6-piece negative) in Amazon (only 30quid). 

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[BernardC]

 

39 minutes ago, tomasis7 said:

I want to ask about the reversed enlarger lens and Hasselblad bellows and slide holder. Do you have any photos of them? How do you mount a reversed enlarger lens? Im planing to get a copy of Nikon Es2 kit (for 6-piece negative) in Amazon (only 30quid). 

The L39-to-V Mount adapter that I use (fotodiox) has a screw thread that goes all the way from front to back. That means I can screw-in an enlarging lens facing either direction. 

The reversed lens fits inside the bellows, so you need to pre-set the aperture, but otherwise it works just fine. 

I don't think it would work with the Nikon kit, but any 1:1 macro lens should be OK, provided you have the right filter-ring step-up or step-down adapter.