Leitz Photographica Auction Nov. 2023

[UliWer]

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If you are interested in the results of the last Vienna auction you can find them here:

https://www.leitz-auction.com/de/Kameras/

The sensational results for the pair of two MP cameras conceal the fact that many items were not sold and in many cases the highest bids stayed way below the estimates.

It looks as if the big boom of constant price increases for "Collector's" items was coming to an end - with a few exceptions.  

Edited November 27, 2023 by UliWer

[PG Black nickel]

It seems to me that the auction house wants to please its sellers. Personally, I've sold a lot of items in these auction houses and I have to admit that when the auctioneer estimates that my items are too low, I go and talk to him to get him to raise his estimate... which is stupid in itself, because very often when the estimate is low, the sale is easier and the prices go up more!

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[pedaes]

2 hours ago, UliWer said:

the pair of two MP

Do we know if they were bought by the same bidder?

[luigi bertolotti]

Someway an odd auction, looking at results... a lot of good classics unsold, sales of Russian lenses at high prices... and some "trivial" devices for shops (see 422 416 403 401...) sold at prices that personally I find very high... 

As a personal note : I was tempted to bid for the Summicron 28 chrome... but i thought that it would easily go beyond the base price (which I didn't want to increase) , so I did not, and #151 went unsold... 🙄 (and the same story applies also to Summaron # 59 !!! 🤒)

[zeitz]

18 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

i thought that it would easily go beyond the base price

My success when bidding the base price at various auctions is about 30%, so it is worth a shot.

[UliWer]

I was puzzled to see some items similar to those I own sold for high prizes: #47 - I got one even later for about 10% (well, without the "rare brown bakelite keeper"). Or #170: I got one even earlier - in this Forum! - for less than 20% (well yes, this one comes with the front cap which is made of unobtainium...)

[willeica]

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I wrote an article https://www.macfilos.com/2023/11/09/the-leica-and-i-yul-brynner-protecting-journalists-and-some-fotoform/ about this camera auction, the photo auction and the auction in aid of the Committee to Protect Journalists and I also posted about these on my Instagram. In addition, I met some of the Leitz Auction team at our recent Leica Society International Conference in Wetzlar. Keith (pedaes) was also at the Wetzlar event. 

So, with those 'declarations of involvement' out of the way, I will make some observations.

The price for the two Brynner cameras was more than I expected, but others had said to me that they would go for more than a million each, which proved to be the case. I don't know if the same person bought both cameras, but there was vigorous bidding on both items. Of the Brynner photos, the Audrey Hepburn and Deborah Kerr items sold at base price, but the Frank Sinatra and Ron Howard items did not sell. It is hard to see how Leica/Leitz could make any profit out of the photo auction, because, as usual, a lot of items did not sell and it is difficult to see, given the overheads, how any profit could have been made on the commission on the items which sold. The good news is that the auction in aid of the Committee to Protect Journalists raised over $40,000 for this worthy cause. 

Moving on to the camera auction, there were, indeed, a lot of unsold items. There can be a combination of factors at play here. The first is that the expectations of sellers can be unreasonably high. I recall that about 10 years ago at Westlicht there was little or no evidence of reserves being set and almost everything sold.  This time there were bids on most items, but bidding often stopped suddenly due to reserves. In Britain, auctioneers generally give hints that a reserve has or has not yet been reached, but, allowing for my lack of knowledge of German, that does not seem to be the case with German/Austrian auctioneers. They just seem to stop and move onto the next item on the catalogue. Also, on this occasion there was a lot of what I call 'clutter' on the catalogue with multiple similar items all in a row, such as special edition Ms and lens prototypes. The market for any of those categories is not endless and after a while you may run out of purchasers. The items might sell again, of course, particularly if the owners get more realistic about reserve prices. I bought one item which was within estimate. I had earlier pulled out of the auction on another item which went way beyond estimate (although I thought that estimate was too low) and eventually sold for more than twice the estimate. 

Moving on to the items mentioned above:

Russian items are are a specific market in themselves with only a few buyers, who may be buying for parties who are not at the auction. This has been the case for quite some years and they are usually the item category with the highest 'subscription rate'. If you attend a Leitz Auction, you will hear Russian being spoken, before, during and after the event. 

The shop and advertising items are also a niche market and some of the items are rarer than most of the cameras on sale. I know some Leica dealers who buy these for their own shops. 

The chrome Summicron 28mm (No 151) which did not sell clearly did not reach its reserve. It started at €1,400 and reached €2,800 when bidding was stopped by the auctioneer. The reserve was obviously €3,000 or more (range €3,000- €3,400), but this was not reached. It might pop up again with a more realistic reserve. Auctions are a market place where the expectations of both buyer and seller must meet for a sale to take place. Our own opinions of what is and what is not good value have to be set somewhat aside in judging outcomes. They are definitely not places where set price items are sold. A lot of people find it difficult to get their heads around these concepts. 

Item No 59 started at €800 and stopped at €1,400 with an estimated range of €1,500 -€1,600, which is similar to No 151, but much more tight. Maybe, they closed the narrow gap after the auction. 

I can't understand the comment about No 47 , unless the other ADVOO, being mentioned, came in a brown bakelite keeper.

The price for No 170 was clearly based on the item's 'first batch' status, something non collectors often find difficult to comprehend.

My comments above are not intended to justify the prices paid or set, just to put them into some kind of context.

William 

 

[luigi bertolotti]

11 hours ago, willeica said:

 

The chrome Summicron 28mm (No 151) which did not sell clearly did not reach its reserve. It started at €1,400 and reached €2,800 when bidding was stopped by the auctioneer. The reserve was obviously €3,000 or more (range €3,000- €3,400), but this was not reached. It might pop up again with a more realistic reserve. Auctions are a market place where the expectations of both buyer and seller must meet for a sale to take place. Our own opinions of what is and what is not good value have to be set somewhat aside in judging outcomes. They are definitely not places where set price items are sold. A lot of people find it difficult to get their heads around these concepts. 

Item No 59 started at €800 and stopped at €1,400 with an estimated range of €1,500 -€1,600, which is similar to No 151, but much more tight. Maybe, they closed the narrow gap after the auction. 

 

William 

 

Thanks for your clarification, Will ! I didn't attend the auction, and am a lot relieved knowing waht happened an those two items 😉

[willeica]

1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Thanks for your clarification, Will ! I didn't attend the auction, and am a lot relieved knowing waht happened an those two items 😉

I was there in Wetzlar in June, but last Saturday I followed the auction from my home in Dublin. The data I gave is on the Live Auctioneers website as they track all of the bids. I usually bid on the auctioneer's own site as the premium is lower, but I also usually register on Live Auctioneers as well as a back-up.

William 

[UliWer]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb willeica:

I can't understand the comment about No 47 , unless the other ADVOO, being mentioned, came in a brown bakelite keeper.

Sorry, it was #58 I was thinking of.

[willeica]

2 hours ago, UliWer said:

Sorry, it was #58 I was thinking of.

Thanks. I was surprised at the price fetched by this as normally 'Snail Cam' early Elmar 35mm/3.5cm lenses go for more than later items, but this one fetched more than the early items at 56 and 57. That said, I have an early nickel, but numbered, 'Snail Cam' 3.5 cm Elmar which came in an early purple pill box and which cost me about a quarter of the price fetched on Saturday for item No 56. In the case of No 58 about 10,000 3.5 cm Elmars were produced between 1946 and 1950, so the item is not very rare. Yes, the price for No 58 is surprising, but looking at Live Auctioneers there were 24 bids on this item, quite a bit of competition up to the end.

William 

[Michal Kosakowski]

To answer a question raised by a few I can reveal that the two MPs went to one bidder (as they should).

Michal

[willeica]

8 hours ago, Michal Kosakowski said:

To answer a question raised by a few I can reveal that the two MPs went to one bidder (as they should).

Michal

Thanks Michal. I had been speculating about this in my article on the auction. Given the sequential numbering of the cameras, it is no surprise to hear that they went to the same bidder.

William 

[M9reno]

There is an explanation for "unsold".  There was a reserve on items, not in itself a surprising thing, but it was set higher than the starting price (and according to at least one other bidder, who was present in Vienna, may even have exceeded the estimate).  Such was the case on Lot 9, for which I bid, but which nevertheless remained unsold.

Rather disappointing perhaps, but as I said to my friend:  "Thank you Leica for keeping the price of our collectibles nice and high." Such price control is born directly out of Leica's expansion from being the manufacturer, to the world's biggest auctioneer and second-hand dealer of Leica equipment.

[willeica]

58 minutes ago, M9reno said:

There is an explanation for "unsold".  There was a reserve on items, not in itself a surprising thing, but it was set higher than the starting price (and according to at least one other bidder, who was present in Vienna, may even have exceeded the estimate).  Such was the case on Lot 9, for which I bid, but which nevertheless remained unsold.

Rather disappointing perhaps, but as I said to my friend:  "Thank you Leica for keeping the price of our collectibles nice and high." Such price control is born directly out of Leica's expansion from being the manufacturer, to the world's biggest auctioneer and second-hand dealer of Leica equipment.

Alfonso, I was surprised with this lot  (No 9) as well. I thought that it had gone to €2,800, but, looking again at Live Auctioneers, it seems that it stopped at €2,600, just one bid below the bottom of the estimate range. I mentioned earlier that auctioneers in the UK seem to signal if a reserve has not been met and I've also seen this being done at car auctions in the US. In Germany and Austria they just stop and move onto the next item in the catalogue, which may be a cultural thing, but could also lead to a lot of unsold items and also suppress prices in the market rather than enhance them, the opposite to what was intended by having reserves. 

In terms of value, Leitz may be the largest auction, but not in terms of numbers of items sold. Some of the UK auctions have a lot more items and so too does LP Auction in Sweden which is a 2 day affair with a 'normal' auction the first day and on the second day they have 'timed shoot out' auction where the person with the highest bid at the end gets the item. I have won a couple of items on the second type of auction and it is good fun, albeit with lower value items. 

As for keeping prices high, It is wrong to blame auction houses entirely for this. In many cases, the reserve is set by the owner who is the actual vendor with the auction house acting on their behalf. It takes some time for price expectations to adjust to a lower market. It has happened before and can happen again.

William