Leica M11-P: New Flagship With Content Authentication

[250swb]

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This Content Authentication bollocks is either about bragging rights in camera clubs, or Leica being able to track your uploads to the internet. It's spying software. 

[thrid]

28 minutes ago, algrove said:

I beg your pardon but if you ever had some time with HCB's printer in Paris, he manipulated images a lot. He is now deceased, but Peter Turnley can also verify this today.

Oh, I know that a lot of his negs were a nightmare to print, because he wasn't much of a technician and often delivered poorly exposed negatives.  Many of his shots are also barely in focus... He also didn't exclusively shoot with a 50. None of this is news

But his printers were not rearranging the actual content of the image like a lot of people are today. (adding, moving or removing people or objects etc)

That's something entirely different. 

It seems like there isn't a week that goes by where you don't read about someone being disqualified from a contest they won, because it turns out that much of the picture is an actual fabrication that was passed off as a real in camera capture. 

If you want to go that route that's fine, but passing a photo illustration off as an actual photograph is wrong and manipulative.

Edited October 26, 2023 by thrid

[la1402]

CAI seems to have a similar intent like TPM platforms in Computers - ensuring the integrity of the data. I understand the benefit this could have for some professionials. It works and is pretty reliable. But for an M11 owner, there is no reason to upgrade, so I save my money for the M11 Black Paint 70 years edition next summer ☺️

 

 

[dkmoore]

They should have added a built in MP3 player. 

[la1402]

11 minutes ago, 250swb said:

This Content Authentication bollocks is ... spying software. 

 I suggest to get educated before throwing out accusations like that.

[la1402]

2 minutes ago, dkmoore said:

They should have added a built in MP3 player. 

That is so old school. Oh wait.... 😉

[irenedp]

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The Royal Photographic Society admits that alterations in photographs have happened historically and that there is a grey area on what is material in a photograph. One thing is to do an alteration such as eliminating cables or people and another to create  “new” things that are material to the photograph.  This is ongoing but most discussions set up that line, and jurors tend to agree. The statement below is clear, referring to entirely generative images or images with material elements entirely generated by an AI  

  Sincerely, I think the “certification” is opportunistic and does not add value.  The raw file (or files, when taking a panorama) is more than enough  

1. The RPS remains committed to the principle that photographs should be the original work of the creator(s), so entirely generative images, or images with material elements entirely generated by AI will not be permitted for Distinction submissions, exhibitions and competitions.  What constitutes material in this context is a grey area, and something the RPS will continue to explore with its creative community.
2. The RPS will accept the use of algorithmic processing in-camera or in post-processing software, which supports digital photography for Distinction submissions, exhibitions and competitions, on the condition that photographers are clear and open where such tools have been used.  The RPS will trust in the integrity of its community but in certain circumstances may request further evidence in the form of RAW files or EXIF data, accepting that such evidence may itself not be definitive.”

Edited October 26, 2023 by irenedp

[250swb]

19 minutes ago, la1402 said:

 I suggest to get educated before throwing out accusations like that.

So educate us all as to why a camera specific software logging and tracking 'programme' doesn't infiltrate your personal rights? While not always used honourably you have the right to dissemble about the camera manufacturer if you don't want any other f*****r knowing what you are doing. And if you are able to switch it off is a moot point because that is all this 'M11-P' is all about!

Edited October 26, 2023 by 250swb

[lldd]

4 hours ago, jdlaing said:

All metal. Part of the top plate.

SL 601 has a plastic (not metal) bump on the top plate for GPS.  SL2 uses bluetooth to phone for gps data.

[Chuck Albertson]

2 hours ago, thrid said:

It's also important for law enforcement and court cases. I remember back when the move from film to digital was happening that there was a lot of debate about the admission of digitally captured images in court, because they are so easily manipulated.

The argument was that you can always go back to a film negative to prove that the image wasn't manipulated, but there was a level distrust when it camera to digital RAW files.

 

I don't recall that coming up in court. I don't know the rules in your jurisdiction, but over here to authenticate an image in court (film or digital), all you need is a warm body on the witness stand testifying that it's an accurate depiction of the scene they witnessed.

[la1402]

25 minutes ago, 250swb said:

So educate us all as to why a camera specific software logging and tracking 'programme' doesn't infiltrate your personal rights? While not always used honourably you have the right to dissemble about the camera manufacturer if you don't want any other f*****r knowing what you are doing. And if you are able to switch it off is a moot point because that is all this 'M11-P' is all about!

You obviously don’t know what CAI is or how it works. There are numerous websites out there that explain it very well. 
 
And gives you a choice. It doesn’t force you to do anything, as you can switch it off. How does it infiltrate your personal rights? It just gives an _option_ to certify creator and originality of content, which in these days is more and more relevant and if anything, protects the creator. But if you don’t want it, switch it off. Last time I checked the feature list, this was not the only thing the M11P is about. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by la1402

[thrid]

13 minutes ago, Chuck Albertson said:

I don't recall that coming up in court. I don't know the rules in your jurisdiction, but over here to authenticate an image in court (film or digital), all you need is a warm body on the witness stand testifying that it's an accurate depiction of the scene they witnessed.

This was a long time ago. Like 2000-2003? I think the Canon D30 was the hot item. I remember reading about it on some photo website and it may have been specific to Japan? But the way they solved it was with these special tamper resistant SD cards that also happened to me more archival than your average card.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, jdlaing said:

All metal. Part of the top plate.

The SL(601) has a plastic antenna cover on the top left of the camera. The SL2 doesn't have GPS (all metal).

On the M10 the GPS was built into the Visoflex (the same one use on the TL cameras). This was removed on the new Visoflex.

Gordon

Edited October 26, 2023 by FlashGordonPhotography

[setuporg]

And the black M11-P is sold out at B&H.  The silver is still in stock as of the moment of this writing.

[Jeremy Bunting]

I'm extremely happy with this release, as I just bought a car, and really shouldn't spend the cash to "upgrade" from the regular M11.

And I like my red dot.

[Antonio Russell]

CAI authenticates that X camera took a picture.... not the person holding the camera at the time.... its worthless

[Indeepthought]

I find this quite crazy, the M11 is still having endemic issues, including freezing & other problems! And with no definitive cure! Yet people are queuing up to buy the -P iteration! - Please tell me why?  Maybe well heeled sadists.. 🍻

Edited October 26, 2023 by Indeepthought

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, Antonio Russell said:

CAI authenticates that X camera took a picture.... not the person holding the camera at the time.... its worthless

It’s not worthless. It tracks manipulation of the image. News agencies as well as Adobe are driving it.

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

The SL(601) has a plastic antenna cover on the top left of the camera. The SL2 doesn't have GPS (all metal).

On the M10 the GPS was built into the Visoflex (the same one use on the TL cameras). This was removed on the new Visoflex.

Gordon

I looked at mine and you’re right. 
 

The M bodies do not have room for the gps. 

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[Antonio Russell]

3 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

It’s not worthless. It tracks manipulation of the image. News agencies as well as Adobe are driving it.

Good for Adobe and co. But its worthless in terms of proving x person took y photo.