Where next for the digital M platform?

[LBJ2]

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30 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/270790-14000-is-forever/?do=findComment&comment=3243092

 

Same!

So....according to this comment, it's not about thin camera body and lack of space rather shutter curtain speed noise when the shutter is adjusted for up to 1/8000

"At the speed that Leica runs their shutter (designed to be as quiet as possible), any slit width that would produce 1/8000th would be so narrow as to produce diffraction. So the only solution would be to increase the speed of the shutter curtains, not to narrow the split, which would make the shutter more noisy." 

"The M8 had an 1/8000th shutter, but after complaints about the noise, they halved the curtain speed for the M8-2." 

Even more interesting then expected. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by LBJ2

[hdmesa]

13 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

So....according to this comment, it not about thin camera body and lack of space rather shutter curtain speed noise when the shutter is adjusted for up to 1/8000...

And probably further complications moving from the M8 to having to cross a full frame sensor, perhaps vibrations became an issue in addition to noise.

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[LBJ2]

3 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

And probably further complications moving from the M8 to having to cross a full frame sensor, perhaps vibrations became an issue in addition to noise.

And probably explains why the M10-R is 1/4000 and the M11 is still 1/4000 mechanical too. Although I have to say, I've gotten away with a lot more with the M11's electronic shutter than expected...as long as my subjects don't make any big moves quickly then it works out well. Now if the M12 comes with BSI/Stacked ...look out! 

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, LBJ2 said:

And probably explains why the M10-R is 1/4000 and the M11 is still 1/4000 mechanical too. Although I have to say, I've gotten away with a lot more with the M11's electronic shutter than expected...as long as my subjects don't make any big moves quickly then it works out well. Now if the M12 comes with BSI/Stacked ...look out! 

I think we have a good chance of the M12 being a stacked sensor since its release date is obviously still pretty far away. If the successor to the A7R4/5 (which shares the same base sensor tech with the M11) gets a stacked sensor, then I think we have hope it will see its way to the M12. Stacked sensor tech needs to be improved in the meantime so that there is little to no loss of IQ compared to non-stacked. I don't think Leica would go for a reduction in IQ just to be able to get rid of rolling shutter is ES mode.

Edited August 22, 2023 by hdmesa

[hdmesa]

Just now, Multicoated said:

This doesn’t sound like some impossibility. It’s just an engineering problem that can be resolved. Give the engineers this problem. I want 1/8000 shutter in this body and I don’t want shutter shake. You think engineers just throw their hands up in the air and say “nope. Can’t be done”. 😀

Perhaps not, but I don't think Leica makes their own shutter mechanisms, so might be more complex than just tasking themselves to make it happen. Plus, there are obviously not enough digital M buyers refusing to buy the M cameras with the 1/4000 sec. max limitation to motivate Leica to get it done.

1 minute ago, Multicoated said:

This is exactly what I’m talking about. We shouldn’t even be discussing this for an M camera. Leave all this nonsense for the SL and keep the M simple. 

I’m sure I’m in the minority on that. Like I said before, this is exactly where the M is headed. To these types of discussions. It’s just going to get more and more complicated chasing more and more specs. 

Perhaps a moot point as by the time the M12 comes out, Leica will likely be using a sensor with fast enough readout speed even if it's a non-stacked sensor. There are non-stacked sensors out today that do not show rolling shutter with all but the fastest movement (hummingbird wings beating, sports/action – stuff mostly outside the shooting envelope of the M).

[elmars]

Many are calling for an IBIS. There is only room for it if the shutter is omitted. That is only possible if there is a sensor that is suitable for the special needs of the M. Leica will only use such a sensor if it does not have the typical disadvantages of a shutterless camera.

If there is such a thing, Leica will incorporate it into the M. Leica cannot live on nostalgics alone (this almost cost Leica its life before the Kaufmann era), but it needs innovations even for such a traditional product like the M.

[jaapv]

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5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

And probably further complications moving from the M8 to having to cross a full frame sensor, perhaps vibrations became an issue in addition to noise.

That might be the case but they reduced the shutter speed on the M8.2 and kept the M9 at 1/4000

[lct]

1 hour ago, Multicoated said:

[...] This is exactly what I’m talking about. We shouldn’t even be discussing this for an M camera. Leave all this nonsense for the SL and keep the M simple.
I’m sure I’m in the minority on that [...]

Sounds like you simply are in the traditional camp. Ugly progressives like yours truly want a modern M but i'm not sure to be in the majority at all. Now you're asking for 1/8000s if i understand well. My old D70 could to that almost 20 years ago but the M11 does it very well too. Albeit with no click, admittedly, but nobody's perfect

 

 

[maxpower]

As long as they keep being able to repair my current M bodies if/when needed, I don't really care what the future brings to be honest. Every change will be probably come with a trade off and be just as divisive as every change up to now has been. 

[evikne]

2 hours ago, Multicoated said:

This is exactly what I’m talking about. We shouldn’t even be discussing this for an M camera. Leave all this nonsense for the SL and keep the M simple. 

I’m sure I’m in the minority on that. Like I said before, this is exactly where the M is headed. To these types of discussions. It’s just going to get more and more complicated chasing more and more specs. 

I notice for myself how difficult it is to stay on track. 😄

Edited August 22, 2023 by evikne

[lct]

16 minutes ago, Multicoated said:

Just commenting on the sadness of the inevitable death of the Leica M as a classic rangefinder.

Why being so pessimistic? As long as there is some demand for them, traditional Leica Ms are here to stay as long as film Ms do.

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, Multicoated said:

No. I said 1/8000 mechanical shutter. The M11 can’t do that. The electronic shutter on the M11 has such bad rolling shutter some users turn off the ES entirely.

and I’m not sure how bad it is with banding. 

in fact I’m not asking for anything. I won’t be buying any new Leica M ever. I have all I need. Just commenting on the sadness of the inevitable death of the Leica M as a classic rangefinder. 

All hail no shutters. All electronic. No sound of the shutter anymore (maybe a speaker with a fake sound). IBIS. Super stacked sensors and more megapixels and more and more complications. Maybe a quad core processor. EVF. No rangefinder. Who needs that. 😀

Can’t wait to see it. It’ll be hilarious. 

It’ll sure look like an old M camera. To look cool. 

In a German interview, the Leica development said that the M8 sensor was unreachable at 1/8000. for years there was a large request to bring it back and when the M11 came out they implemented in electronic shutter.

[dpitt]

Apart from IBIS (if possible without sacrificing the mechanical shutter), I would like the next M to have the following improvements:

- Better auto WB. One of the few things my iPhone does better than my M
- An electronic indication in the VF when focus inside the patch is achieved perfectly, e.g. frames that change color or something.
It would need to work in similar way as the focus peaking lines in the SL, but then without using the EVF. This would improve focusing in situations where judging the optical patch alignment is hard.

And, it is probably just wishful thinking, because Leica struggles with producing enough for demand already... But, release a basic M model, next to the full blown successor of the M11. Maybe similar to the D range, leave out the display and other bells and whistles... Yes, I know, the M11 is already pretty basic compared to its peers, but I am thinking of a model without LV, 24 MP and basically only what the M9 had in functionality. The M will never be all things to all people, so why not reduce this base model to its essence...

 

[lct]

2 minutes ago, dpitt said:

Apart from IBIS (if possible without sacrificing the mechanical shutter), I would like the next M to have the following improvements: [...]

[...] it is probably just wishful thinking, because Leica struggles with producing enough for demand already... But, release a basic M model, next to the full blown successor of the M11. Maybe similar to the D range, leave out the display and other bells and whistles... Yes, I know, the M11 is already pretty basic compared to its peers, but I am thinking of a model without LV, 24 MP and basically only what the M9 had in functionality. The M will never be all things to all people, so why not reduce this base model to its essence...

Why not using the M10-P? Sounds pretty basic and you don't have to use its LV capabilities. Just curious as i have no experience with it.

[dpitt]

25 minutes ago, lct said:

Why not using the M10-P? Sounds pretty basic and you don't have to use its LV capabilities. Just curious as i have no experience with it.

No need. I use my M9 🙂

But, I am sure lots of people would like to buy a brand new 'M9' with a 24MP sensor, perfect auto WB, modern ISO capabilities and dynamic range. And of course a warranty and all the perks of a brand new Leica.

Edited August 22, 2023 by dpitt

[Knipsknecht]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb dpitt:

[…] - An electronic indication in the VF when focus inside the patch is achieved perfectly, e.g. frames that change color or something.
It would need to work in similar way as the focus peaking lines in the SL, but then without using the EVF. This would improve focusing in situations where judging the optical patch alignment is hard. […]

 

I would like that, too. But I think that won’t be possible until there would be completely new lenses with electronic contacts and internal electronics to tell the camera the exact position of the focus. As far as I know Nikon has such a function in its new Z-line. In fact I am interested in the coming Zf fullframe camera, designed with the analog FE2 or FM2 in mind. Voigtlander has a couple of manual lenses with electronic contacts and the little focus patch in the EVF turns green when the picture is in focus. Sounds pretty tempting to me😇 …

[LocalHero1953]

Odd. Multicoated seems to have dematerialised from the forum. Either he trod on a wormhole or he was outed as the latest incarnation of the wannabe member that likes Sony colours.

[hdmesa]

4 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Odd. Multicoated seems to have dematerialised from the forum. Either he trod on a wormhole or he was outed as the latest incarnation of the wannabe member that likes Sony colours.

They always end up outing themselves.

[evikne]

10 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Odd. Multicoated seems to have dematerialised from the forum. Either he trod on a wormhole or he was outed as the latest incarnation of the wannabe member that likes Sony colours.

He was quite outspoken, but made several good points.

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[hdmesa]

6 minutes ago, evikne said:

He was quite outspoken, but made several good points.

They did, but they couldn’t stick to the script of blending in and posted a traditional troll post in another thread. Just couldn’t help themselves I guess.

Edited August 22, 2023 by hdmesa
grammar