Jono Slack Review: Leica M11 Monochrome

[tom0511]

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vor 24 Minuten schrieb algrove:

John

To me the one positive you missed is the more accurate meter. This is a big deal many miss talking about.

Of course other pluses are the bigger battery which is fabulous, the top button next to the shutter release button which I use with the EVF from time to time for focus magnification instead of the auto magnification you can have when turning the focus ring and of course the EVF and grip both of which have matured in the right direction.

I totally I agree about the metering, which has been a weak point of digital Leica M cameras. I love it with the M11, and I find it even more useful for Mono-sensors, where it is even more important not to blow highlights.

[steamboat]

On 4/14/2023 at 4:07 PM, jonoslack said:

Thank you

For me - I agree too - using the colour sliders with an M11 file is more beneficial than the extra detail in the Monochrom file . . . and maybe you wanted it in colour!

But the remit was to review the mono - and it is better!

In my opinion there is one really good reason for the monochrome but it’s very obscure and only affects a handful of photographers - almost all pros and photojournalists. Some (few) photography competitions require the entries to be entered nearly in the state that it came out of the camera. Nothing added in post-production for the most part. Certainly converting color to B&W could be considered (or not) a ‘big’ change to the original. So you are in contention for the win and they ask for the raw image. The monochrome raw image would be great for one’s black & white entry. I recently saw an international sports photography competition that now has a “raw” category. That’s what they call the category and it’s for images just out of the camera. Additionally, I can’t help but think, too, with the advent of AI that this requirement might pop up more and more.

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, algrove said:

John

To me the one positive you missed is the more accurate meter. This is a big deal many miss talking about.

Of course other pluses are the bigger battery which is fabulous, the top button next to the shutter release button which I use with the EVF from time to time for focus magnification instead of the auto magnification you can have when turning the focus ring and of course the EVF and grip both of which have matured in the right direction.

Not sure about that, Al.

The most accurate metering is incident metering, in my experience, followed by careful spot metering (using the zone system, if you can be bothered).  The multi-field metering is my least preferred means of metering, which is why I prefer centre-weighted metering.  Of course, that depends on what you’re used to - any metering is fine, if you understand what is affecting the reading.

I suppose my dislike of multi-field metering is that the camera is deciding what to meter - I prefer greater control, even if it is to adapt the reading off the shutter curtain, either by overriding it (I tend to set exposures manually, rather than with aperture priority) or by shifting the point of focus, and setting the reading with a half press on the shutter release.

I do have the option of spot metering and multi-field by fitting an EVF onto my M10-D - but with the M11 series cameras, I don’t have that option, as the sensor is always live …. Splitting hairs, I know, but it bugs me.  The old metering off the shutter curtain wasn’t broken (and the shutter sound was the best of any M camera since the film cameras).  Those wanting other metering means had the option of turning on live view.  

[IkarusJohn]

17 minutes ago, steamboat said:

In my opinion there is one really good reason for the monochrome but it’s very obscure and only affects a handful of photographers - almost all pros and photojournalists. Some (few) photography competitions require the entries to be entered nearly in the state that it came out of the camera. Nothing added in post-production for the most part. Certainly converting color to B&W could be considered (or not) a ‘big’ change to the original. So you are in contention for the win and they ask for the raw image. The monochrome raw image would be great for one’s black & white entry. I recently saw an international sports photography competition that now has a “raw” category. That’s what they call the category and it’s for images just out of the camera. Additionally, I can’t help but think, too, with the advent of AI that this requirement might pop up more and more.

Well, as a non-professional / non-photojournalist / Monochrom user for 10 years now, I have zero interest in competitions …

It takes all kinds, and I would never suggest to anyone that they need to justify their gear choices.  Interestingly, when the Monochrom was relreased, I was convinced it was a terrible idea.  Then I played with Jono’s raw files from China, and ordered the camera.

[algrove]

John

It seems to me you have not had the M11 in your hands long enough if at all.  I have owned every digital M from the M9 including all and every Monochrom and I can tell you this meter is more accurate than any of the others all while giving me all the manual control over my images I want. Sure my M6 TTL's are great to use, but that is film. They are a lot easier to use than my 1C Barnack from 1931.

Edited April 16, 2023 by algrove

[Ko.Fe.]

1 hour ago, steamboat said:

In my opinion there is one really good reason for the monochrome but it’s very obscure and only affects a handful of photographers - almost all pros and photojournalists. Some (few) photography competitions require the entries to be entered nearly in the state that it came out of the camera. Nothing added in post-production for the most part. Certainly converting color to B&W could be considered (or not) a ‘big’ change to the original. So you are in contention for the win and they ask for the raw image. The monochrome raw image would be great for one’s black & white entry. I recently saw an international sports photography competition that now has a “raw” category. That’s what they call the category and it’s for images just out of the camera. Additionally, I can’t help but think, too, with the advent of AI that this requirement might pop up more and more.

I have mixed feelings.

My local media doesn't want bw pictures as reportage.

What is "raw"? I have tried different RAW supporting applications. They show different results  for displaying of same RAW image.

 

I'm not sure of any Monochrome DNG image to be good for competition.

To me Monochrome is not bw film replacement, but exactly same principals for final image applies. 

With BW film if I print it as is under enlarger, often parts of image are lost.

I have to apply extra process to reveal all parts during darkroom printing.

Or I have to tweak how scanner is going to get all of the details. 

 

Oh, I was at seminar with professional who takes it for one of the major news papers...

No RAW, only JPEG1 with small adjustments. He is long time in business and teaching in U as well.

 

 

 

[MarkP]

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2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Well, as a non-professional / non-photojournalist / Monochrom user for 10 years now, I have zero interest in competitions …

It takes all kinds, and I would never suggest to anyone that they need to justify their gear choices.  Interestingly, when the Monochrom was relreased, I was convinced it was a terrible idea.  Then I played with Jono’s raw files from China, and ordered the camera.

Yep, that photo of the elderly Chinese man with the birds.  Looked at the raw file on my computer and ordered a M9M the next day.  That beautiful almost filmic noise.  I go back to my M9M files even now and they stand out a mile compared to those from the M9, M240 and M10 ❤️.

I better stop right now before I talk myself into ordering an M11M 🙄

Edited April 16, 2023 by MarkP

[IkarusJohn]

My name is still down with the local dealer … hmmm

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, algrove said:

John

It seems to me you have not had the M11 in your hands long enough if at all.  I have owned every digital M from the M9 including all and every Monochrom and I can tell you this meter is more accurate than any of the others all while giving me all the manual control over my images I want. Sure my M6 TTL's are great to use, but that is film. They are a lot easier to use than my 1C Barnack from 1931.

Agreed. @IkarusJohn, I don't even touch Multifield with my M11. I use mostly Highlight Weighed but sometimes Center Weighted depending on what the scene/subject/purpose is. Both are nearly infallible compared to metering off the shutter blades. The drawback of the M11 meter is what others have said already – it ruined the simple, quiet, and timeless "snick" sound of the shutter when using the rangefinder.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I'm only speaking from M11 experience, but found that center weighted exposures still does most of what I need, with highlight weighted available to (only partially) compensate for extreme conditions.  Multi-field is too independent-minded for my taste.  Jono, at this point are the M11 and M11M essentially identical in operation and  in their best practices?  For example, when you fill the extractable chip and continue onto the interior chip, you have to spend some time assuring the camera that that is what you intend, by pressing the middle of the 4-way buttons (and perhaps other EasterEggs).  And then if you want to playback an image, you are suddenly seeing only the images on the interior chip.  Same on the  M11M?  I haven't tried extracting the overflow images  by USB-C cable or Fotos yet.

Could you go over your event shooting workflow a little more slowly?  I think it will be of interest to many of us.

[Jon Warwick]

9 hours ago, tom0511 said:

I totally I agree about the metering, which has been a weak point of digital Leica M cameras. I love it with the M11, and I find it even more useful for Mono-sensors, where it is even more important not to blow highlights.

I had a play with the M11M yesterday in very contrasty light, using multi-field metering. The red blinkies are flashing when I first open the file in ACR, but I'm finding that I can drag down the highlights well, and have yet to stumble across a single image where I've blown the highlights. It feels like the dynamic range into the highlights is helping a lot on the M11M, if I was using my M10M this wouldn't have been as easy (or I would have needed to dramatically underexpose the M10M image and try to drag up the shadows, which isn't particularly ideal either).    

[elmars]

There is about one stop more dynamic range with the M11 Mono over the M10 Mono.

[jonoslack]

9 hours ago, algrove said:

John

It seems to me you have not had the M11 in your hands long enough if at all.  I have owned every digital M from the M9 including all and every Monochrom and I can tell you this meter is more accurate than any of the others all while giving me all the manual control over my images I want. Sure my M6 TTL's are great to use, but that is film. They are a lot easier to use than my 1C Barnack from 1931.

Quite right - the spot metering, centre weighted and highlight weighted are all useful and accurate. 

Personally though I'd have kept the option of the 'off the shutter' metering so as to have the option of the nicer shutter noise . . . . 

all the best

[jonoslack]

7 hours ago, MarkP said:

Yep, that photo of the elderly Chinese man with the birds.  Looked at the raw file on my computer and ordered a M9M the next day.  That beautiful almost filmic noise.  I go back to my M9M files even now and they stand out a mile compared to those from the M9, M240 and M10 ❤️.

I better stop right now before I talk myself into ordering an M11M 🙄

Hi There Mark

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

The Henri article is still up: https://www.slack.co.uk/slack/Monochrom.html

Also the DNG files are still in my dropbox folder, but sadly dropbox have changed their referencing so the links don't work

Still - here is the old man with the cormorants:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/le6ec27un6w7at0/L9032554.DNG?dl=0

Here is the Chinese girl (now my daughter in law)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jhwkgu1muux4iu/L9032952ChineseGirl.DNG?dl=0

There's nothing like nostalgia!

 

All the best

Jono

[jonoslack]

5 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I'm only speaking from M11 experience, but found that center weighted exposures still does most of what I need, with highlight weighted available to (only partially) compensate for extreme conditions.  Multi-field is too independent-minded for my taste.  Jono, at this point are the M11 and M11M essentially identical in operation and  in their best practices?  For example, when you fill the extractable chip and continue onto the interior chip, you have to spend some time assuring the camera that that is what you intend, by pressing the middle of the 4-way buttons (and perhaps other EasterEggs).  And then if you want to playback an image, you are suddenly seeing only the images on the interior chip.  Same on the  M11M?  I haven't tried extracting the overflow images  by USB-C cable or Fotos yet.

Could you go over your event shooting workflow a little more slowly?  I think it will be of interest to many of us.

Hi There Scott

The M11 and M11M firmwares are 'synchronised' so, yes, the internal memory etc. is working the same way. 

I'll think about the workflow a bit more and try and write something down - right now I've got to go and cut the grass!

all the best

[scott kirkpatrick]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Hi There Scott

The M11 and M11M firmwares are 'synchronised' so, yes, the internal memory etc. is working the same way. 

I'll think about the workflow a bit more and try and write something down - right now I've got to go and cut the grass!

all the best

Synchronized = identical or close to it, I guess.  Makes sense.

Incidentally, I downloaded a copy of the M11M manual and found that at the time it was finished the internal memory was only 64 GB, so we seem to have been given the 256 GB upgrade late in development.  Did you see both sizes, and is the newer, bigger internal chip even faster than the old one?  This might argue for doing all shooting onto chip 2 first, using the transfer to or duplicate on chip 1 to extract them. (My SanDisk reader is really fast with 300 MBps chips.)  I wonder if the 256 horsepower innards will show up as part of an M11P upgrade in another year, to encourage the laggards to move up to the BSI sensor. 

[Jeff S]

11 hours ago, hdmesa said:

The drawback of the M11 meter is what others have said already – it ruined the simple, quiet, and timeless "snick" sound of the shutter when using the rangefinder.

“Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?”

I’m joking, but I’m surprised that Leica didn’t address this somehow, possibly with a traditional shutter blade reading option, as noted. Leica admitted that that they underestimated customer reaction to the slight extra size/weight of the M240, vowing never to repeat.  Shutter sound and feel seems another sensitive issue with M users. I wonder if this will prompt another change. Keep up the feedback, Jono!
 

As I wrote earlier, the M10-R/M bodies serve my needs and preferences well, with most all of the added features of the M11 wasted on me. A few, however, like the better battery, appeal. But those few advantages for me are more than offset by M11 platform teething issues(so far) and the backwards step with shutter action/sound, an important part of my M RF experience. And that’s aside from this price insanity.
 

I’ll remain on the sidelines, sans Leica GAS, for quite a while it seems, shooting and printing with already more than capable gear.  Next purchases will be a new computer and new screen to replace my 2009/10 ancient models.

But forum entertainment remains… especially watching the GAS pressure that inevitably prompts purchase considerations from others who have recently voiced satisfaction with existing gear. Funny stuff, considering the unlikelihood that pics will improve.  
 

Jeff

 

[algrove]

Agree the snick sound is marvelous.

However, shutter sound has never impacted me especially on the street where ambient noise is far louder than any shutter sound. So this makes the M11M the ultimate camera so far. If shutter noise IS an issue for someone and you know how to use it correctly , then the electronic shutter is silent and even not having the liked "snick" sound.

If one is shooting portraits the person likes to hear the shutter so that they know you are actually taking their image. Otherwise they often can look confused as to what you are doing behind the camera.

Edited April 16, 2023 by algrove

[Jeff S]

To each his/her own. I don’t care how others  experience the sound in my camera; it’s for my tastes.  I hate a silent shutter; and never needed one. I don’t know about the “ultimate” camera, but the M10 Monochrom better suits my preferences; more keeping with “the essentials” IMO. Different strokes…and choices for all.

Jeff

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jonoslack]

19 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

To each his/her own. I don’t care how others  experience the sound in my camera; it’s for my tastes.  I hate a silent shutter; and never needed one. I don’t know about the “ultimate” camera, but the M10 Monochrom better suits my preferences; more keeping with “the essentials” IMO. Different strokes…and choices for all.

Jeff

Ah yes - shutter sounds - when I'm taking pictures of people I use the shutter noise to control the situation, so that the subject knows when I've taken a picture and relaxes, really important, so I agree with you - don't want no silent shutter . . . but I prefer the uncomplicated noise of the original M10 to the M11 clickety clack . . . hey though, this is no kind of deal breaker in any sense, and the advantages of the M11 are many and various!

All the best

Jono