Trade Q2 for M-240 w/ 50mm Summicron - am I insane?

[F_Stop]

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Hello wonderful people of the internet. I'm currently finding myself in a situation where I have the option of trade my Q2 for an M 240 with 50mm Summicron. I'd love to get a second opinion as to whether I'm completely insane to consider this trade.

The reason - simply put, the 28mm focal length is just not for me. I had fun with it and tried to make it work, but shooting just didn't come as natural as it did with the 50mm. Yes, I know, sometimes getting out of your comfort zone is best, but not at the sacrifice of enjoying photography in general. 

Anyways, here I am now with the current predicament. I know I'll love the 50mm Summicron, but I fear that the 240 itself may not be the best choice given it's roughly 12 years old? This is where I need your advice as I'm still new to the Leica world. The majority of my photography experience was with Sony.

Your guidance is appreciated!

[Herr Barnack]

Hello, @F_Stop and welcome to the forum!

I have both the Q2 and the M-P 240.  In my experience, the 240's achilles heel is ISO - 6400 is its maximum.  If you can live with that drawback or can learn to work around it, the M-P 240 is still a viable tool.  Yes, it is "old" technology.  But it is not obsolete.  The 240 can still get the job done.

I had the original M240 and had problems with the buffer getting log jammed when making multiple shots in quick succession.  The 1GB buffer was just not up to the task.  I traded for a Safari version of the M-P 240 which has a 2GB buffer.  Problem solved. 

If you make prints, the 240's 24 mp sensor is big enough, unless you want to make house sized prints.  I have made 24x36 inch prints from my M-P 240 files that are exhibit quality. 

The Q2 is a truly great camera, but if just doesn't work for you, it would most probably be a good decision to trade it in for something that does work for you. 

Quote

...Yes, I know, sometimes getting out of your comfort zone is best, but not at the sacrifice of enjoying photography in general...

If the Q2 is that bad of a fit for you, I can't counsel you to keep it and struggle on.  If we can't enjoy our tools and photography, what's the point?

In the end, I would say that if you decide to trade in your Q2, get an M-P 240 rather than the M240.  I would also make the transition sooner rather than later; when the Q3 arrives - likely sometime in the spring or early summer of this year - your Q2 will lose trade in value.

I hope my thoughts will be of help to you.  Best of luck.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Herr Barnack

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[F_Stop]

 

22 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Hello, @F_Stop and welcome to the forum!

I have both the Q2 and the M-P 240.  In my experience, the 240's achilles heel is ISO - 6400 is its maximum.  If you can live with that drawback or can learn to work around it, the M-P 240 is still a viable tool.  Yes, it is "old" technology.  But it is not obsolete.  The 240 can still get the job done.

I had the original M240 and had problems with the buffer getting log jammed when making multiple shots in quick succession.  The 1GB buffer was just not up to the task.  I traded for a Safari version of the M-P 240 which has a 2GB buffer.  Problem solved. 

If you make prints, the 240's 24 mp sensor is big enough, unless you want to make house sized prints.  I have made 24x36 inch prints from my M-P 240 files that are exhibit quality. 

The Q2 is a truly great camera, but if just doesn't work for you, it would most probably be a good decision to trade it in for something that does work for you. 

If the Q2 is that bad of a fit for you, I can't counsel you to keep it and struggle on.  If we can't enjoy our tools and photography, what's the point?

In the end, I would say that if you decide to trade in your Q2, get an M-P 240 rather than the M240.  I would also make the transition sooner rather than later; when the Q3 arrives - likely sometime in the spring or early summer of this year - your Q2 will lose trade in value.

I hope my thoughts will be of help to you.  Best of luck.

Thanks for your prompt response. I've read about people having issues with the 1gb buffer, but I have never run into a situation where that has been a problem - likely because I take approx 3 shots back to back then assess. Based on your experience, how many shots would I be looking at before I run into the lagging issue caused by buffering? I've read a couple of pots on this topic here, but would be great to get a consolidated answer vs. the variety of experiences.

 

Oddly enough, I do have an opportunity for an MP 240, but it comes with a 28mm Elmarit. So I'll be safe with buffering, but back with the 28mm problem. I could always sell the lens and get a new one of my preferred focal length. Question is, would you say the upgrade in body is worth the extra step? I should also mention the following: M 240 comes with all boxes and papers. MP 240 comes does not include box and papers. I know this is such a miniscule point to obsess about, just wondering if this should also be taken into consideration.

 

Thanks again!!!

Edited February 22, 2023 by F_Stop

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

...Based on your experience, how many shots would I be looking at before I run into the lagging issue caused by buffering?...

If memory serves, I would get a log jam after 6-8 shots in rapid succession. 

Regarding the M240 - the box, documents and manual will be helpful in terms of value if you decide to trade it in one day - although not by a lot.  M240 manuals can be found online and probably for sale on ebay or another similar site.  There are also M240 guide books available.

As for the M-P 240 with the 28mm Elmarit, you could trade the Elmarit for a 50mm lens.  The 28 Elmarit is a solid lens and is well regarded; I would expect that it would bring a decent trade in value.

Quote

...Question is, would you say the upgrade in body is worth the extra step?...

That is a matter of personal opinion. 

The M-P 240 will come with the 2 GB buffer and the rear screen will be synthetic sapphire mineral glass (the nearly indestructible, nearly scratch proof material used on high end watch crystals like Rolex) rather than the Gorilla Glass used on the M240.  I would be willing to pay a bit more for those upgrades, as in a few hundred dollars, but probably not in the $800-1000+ range.  I'm not sure what the price difference between an M240 and an M-P 240 is these days, though.

[F_Stop]

9 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

The M-P 240 will come with the 2 GB buffer and the rear screen will be synthetic sapphire mineral glass (the nearly indestructible, nearly scratch proof material used on high end watch crystals like Rolex) rather than the Gorilla Glass used on the M240.  I would be willing to pay a bit more for those upgrades, as in a few hundred dollars, but probably not in the $800-1000+ range.  I'm not sure what the price difference between an M240 and an M-P 240 is these days, though.

It would literally be a straight trade with no cash added from either party. Q2 for the M240 + 50mm Summicron or MP 240 + 28mm Elmarit.

Your logic on box and papers makes sense and a reassurance to my initial thinking of it not being the end of the world. The 240 is holding its value and seems to have plateaued at its depreciated value. I do fear that eventually when the Q3 does come out, the Q2 will take a natural hit.

 

[dpitt]

See below

Edited February 22, 2023 by dpitt

[ECohen]

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I cant answer if your crazy ….but when I read this, made me laugh.

Because Im thinking of trading my 240MP w/28,35,50,90mm kit for a Q3 when/if it comes out.

How do you feel about losing auto focus?
I don't own a Q but I’ll bet it has a better Jpg than the 240. The 240RAW files are great.

The 240MP and a 50 is wonderful combination.
I think it depends on your desired shooting experience….Its going to be very different than the Q.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by ECohen

[F_Stop]

If the Q3 includes a 50mm (which I highly doubt), I would be the first in line.

 

The SOOC jpeg's are nice, can't speak to the quality of an M240's, perhaps you could elaborate.

 

I'm not fussed about losing auto focus. I find myself focused on ensuring that the camera is focused (redundant much?) on the right target that I inevitably switch to manual focus + focus peaking. Shooting style revolves around street, landscape and still-life. I'm sure it will be a challenge to photograph my 5 year old, but then again, I see people capturing kodak moments using M cameras so it must be possible. 

 

From what I'm reading, the M 240 is plenty of camera regardless of it being nearly 12 years old and should last me a number of more years until I decide to upgrade to an M (insert number here). I'm sure the Q2 is the same...it just has this danm 28mm cemented to it ;).

[dpitt]

32 minutes ago, ECohen said:

I cant answer if your crazy ….but when I read this, made me laugh.

Because Im thinking of trading my 240MP w/28,35,50,90mm kit for a Q3 when/if it comes out.

How do you feel about losing auto focus?
I don't own a Q but I’ll bet it has a better Jpg than the 240. The 240RAW files are great.

The 240MP and a 50 is wonderful combination.
I think it depends on your desired shooting experience….Its going to be different than the Q.

 

I was writing just the opposite, or the same, the difference in shooting experience will be very different. Indeed it depends what you want. On a ‘lazy’ day when I feel tired and have not much time I might prefer the Q2, but when it matters I would prefer the M (any M) experience.

The OP experiences now what I had when I bought my M9. On the M8 my Elmarit 28 ASPH was great (38mm eq) but it felt too wide on the M9. My preferred lens on the M9 is the Summicron C 1:2.0/40mm and the Summicron 1:2.0/50 collapsible. I traded my Elmarit 1:2.8/28 ASPH for the 90mm f/4 Macro-Elmar-M and I never regretted it.
Now I have bought the Rokkor 28 F2 and use it on occasionally but not enough to warrant buying the Elmarit 1:2.8/28 ASPH again.

22 minutes ago, F_Stop said:

If the Q3 includes a 50mm (which I highly doubt), I would be the first in line.

 

The SOOC jpeg's are nice, can't speak to the quality of an M240's, perhaps you could elaborate.

 

I'm not fussed about losing auto focus. I find myself focused on ensuring that the camera is focused (redundant much?) on the right target that I inevitably switch to manual focus + focus peaking. Shooting style revolves around street, landscape and still-life. I'm sure it will be a challenge to photograph my 5 year old, but then again, I see people capturing kodak moments using M cameras so it must be possible. 

 

From what I'm reading, the M 240 is plenty of camera regardless of it being nearly 12 years old and should last me a number of more years until I decide to upgrade to an M (insert number here). I'm sure the Q2 is the same...it just has this danm 28mm cemented to it ;).

You seem to confirm what I feel as my strongest argument for the M system. It puts YOU in control, always. If something is out of focus it is YOUR fault, not the camera’s. With AF camera’s I loose shots because I am fiddling with buttons to force it to focus what I want. You could argue that without AF I loose shots too, but I am pretty fast with MF on the M and anyway getting it right is more rewarding with MF.

I think you will like the M so much that no amount of extra megapixels and extra ISO  capabilities will be able to lure you away from the M system again. I would welcome that, but only if the camera has a RF also. And I am going to buy an SL for the 10% of shots like macro and tele where the RF can not do the job. But I would not even trade in my ancient M9 for the SL2, let alone the Q2 (or Q3)

Edited February 22, 2023 by dpitt

[ECohen]

240MP & 50  the close focus is 3’ ….Do you shoot macro?

Please know that I’m not trying to talk you out of it.  The experience is different.

In my opinion as much as back in the 70s the rangefinder 240 would have been  an everything camera. With today’s fabulous auto technology 240 /50 it is not an everything  camera.
Good luck, shooting a five-year-old running around even in a bright room. You are going to need to anticipate before you shoot. You can do it but it’s harder. You really have to shoot a lot for it becomes second nature.
 

I mentioned Jpegs. Side-by-side my Nikon d650 jpgs are more natural. So plan on post….which can be fun. 
 

Forgetting the fairness of the trade in terms of money. What do you want the camera for and is it your only camera?
 

As to the 240 being “plenty” of camera. It is and will be for a very long time.

Edited February 22, 2023 by ECohen

[F_Stop]

I find for the spur of the moment photos with children, I simply just grab my iPhone since it's there. I use my camera when I'm intentionally taking pictures of family. Will I miss some, definitely, but I already do that with the Q, so its a zero sum gain at that point. 

Oddly enough, the deals have intensified. As I know everyone here is sitting at the edge of their seats, wondering what decision I'll make, I'm evaluating the M 240 with 35 and 50 Summicron or the MP 240 with a 28 Elmarit and Canon 50 1.4 LTM. Curious to see peoples opinions of the two.

Now back to the questions above. Yes, this will be my everything camera. While simplifying down and having a one lens/camera was appealing, the 28 isn't it, as previously mentioned. I find myself manual focusing more with the Q, which ultimately leads me down the road of the M. I don't shoot macro, so that's not an issue. 

I don't mind working on photo's in post, in fact I do this with all photos dating back to my Sony A7 (first gen).

Finally, thank you all for chiming in and providing your insight, advice and recommendations. It's easing my need to research this to death, ultimately killing the joy of the experience!

[ECohen]

Go for the M 240 with 35 and 50   I love this combination!

My reason for leaning to a Q is because I’m getting older and I shoot grandchildren. Im slowing up and don't want to work as hard for travel, family, everyday photos. And I always, always move in close.

To me you cant go wrong with this 2 lens kit. And I'm just being picky the 240jpgs they have a different, charming “warmer” look. If you don't like ‘em tweak them.

Hope this helps, just remember every time you pick up the 240, you gotta slow down, you gotta think 🙂 

Leica rangefinders are fun and a joy to use.

PS: You can’t research cameras too much. Isn’t that half the fun? 

Edited February 22, 2023 by ECohen

[Besprosvet]

7 hours ago, F_Stop said:

 

Thanks for your prompt response. I've read about people having issues with the 1gb buffer, but I have never run into a situation where that has been a problem - likely because I take approx 3 shots back to back then assess. Based on your experience, how many shots would I be looking at before I run into the lagging issue caused by buffering? I've read a couple of pots on this topic here, but would be great to get a consolidated answer vs. the variety of experiences.

 

Oddly enough, I do have an opportunity for an MP 240, but it comes with a 28mm Elmarit. So I'll be safe with buffering, but back with the 28mm problem. I could always sell the lens and get a new one of my preferred focal length. Question is, would you say the upgrade in body is worth the extra step? I should also mention the following: M 240 comes with all boxes and papers. MP 240 comes does not include box and papers. I know this is such a miniscule point to obsess about, just wondering if this should also be taken into consideration.

 

Thanks again!!!

I have something to add about the 28mm on a rangefinder camera.

I've always disliked 28mm focal lenght on DSLRs and SoCaNikon mirrorless because it's too "messy", takes too much stuff in the frame while I try to see what I want to get, especially fast 28mm. Bus as soon as I got my Orion-15 the other day and I tried it on the M240, a whole new way of seeing with the 28mm opened to me, it's been a whole epiphany. Now I just love the 28mm and especially the fact that at f6 I must have almost everything in focus, or at least "readable".

There is something about framing with a rangefinder -which is a full depth of field window on the world- that is so special.

This is just my experience of course, but I just wouldn't discard by default the idea of having a 28mm on a rangefinder camera, my 2cents.

[dpitt]

2 hours ago, Besprosvet said:

I have something to add about the 28mm on a rangefinder camera.

I've always disliked 28mm focal lenght on DSLRs and SoCaNikon mirrorless because it's too "messy", takes too much stuff in the frame while I try to see what I want to get, especially fast 28mm. Bus as soon as I got my Orion-15 the other day and I tried it on the M240, a whole new way of seeing with the 28mm opened to me, it's been a whole epiphany. Now I just love the 28mm and especially the fact that at f6 I must have almost everything in focus, or at least "readable".

There is something about framing with a rangefinder -which is a full depth of field window on the world- that is so special.

This is just my experience of course, but I just wouldn't discard by default the idea of having a 28mm on a rangefinder camera, my 2cents.

Well said. The RF makes it special. Do you shoot with glasses? If so, the 28 frame is really hard to see, and seeing outside the frame is impossible. For people with glasses the 35 frame is much more comfortable. An other thing to consider as I am aging and now need glasses to focus...And yes I know of eye correction pieces for the M, but that makes it even harder. Putting glasses off to use the camera, glasses on to CHIMP and set it, then back off again...I'd rather use glasses for everything. Remember you can not use the RF to see all settings of the camera and CHIMP, EVF could help here on the modern Ms but it is still not the same as the Q or SL EVF where you can do everything at once, but which is not a RF...back to base one.

[F_Stop]

Very good point and one to take into consideration. My experience with the 28 has been with the Q alone. 
 

I decided to follow through with the M240, 35 Summilux and 50 Summicron. I enjoy both focal lengths and both are fast that will compensate for the lower ISO. 
 

I’m pretty excited for this and still in shock that I’m trading for a 10 year old camera haha. 

[Besprosvet]

6 hours ago, dpitt said:

Well said. The RF makes it special. Do you shoot with glasses? If so, the 28 frame is really hard to see, and seeing outside the frame is impossible. For people with glasses the 35 frame is much more comfortable. An other thing to consider as I am aging and now need glasses to focus...And yes I know of eye correction pieces for the M, but that makes it even harder. Putting glasses off to use the camera, glasses on to CHIMP and set it, then back off again...I'd rather use glasses for everything. Remember you can not use the RF to see all settings of the camera and CHIMP, EVF could help here on the modern Ms but it is still not the same as the Q or SL EVF where you can do everything at once, but which is not a RF...back to base one.

Well, that's why I ordered a -1 diopter lens, I can't really nail focus all the time and I don't want to wear glasses. Anyway, even like this I barely see the frame lines, but it's ok, to me it's a matter of training the mind to "fill" the unseen (and to fix the parallax error when framing close). It's one of those quirks that make things interesting, maybe it sounds a bit weird, Idk

6 hours ago, F_Stop said:

Very good point and one to take into consideration. My experience with the 28 has been with the Q alone. 
 

I decided to follow through with the M240, 35 Summilux and 50 Summicron. I enjoy both focal lengths and both are fast that will compensate for the lower ISO. 
 

I’m pretty excited for this and still in shock that I’m trading for a 10 year old camera haha. 

Don't worry, as somebody else said here, rangefinders don't age as bad as as those SoCaNikon mirrorless or DSLRs. Of course, it's a sensor that it's old and may break, and its electronics as well, but I don't read anything bad about the M240 having such issues, just the corroding sensor of the M9, that has been replaced in most of them anyway.

I would have traded the Q2 for the M 240 + lenses as well, to me you made the right decision. "Performance" alone one cameras like Leica Q2 or SL2, Canon R5, Sony A7RIV is better than any M, but a Leica M drives your mind in seeing things you wouldn't see with any other system.

I started to see new things -better things- with any focal lenght

[Chris W]

I had a Q and didn't like the (slightly wider than) 28mm view.

I've had an M240 for a few years and it reminds me (fondly) of my old film M6. My favourite lens is the 35mm f2 Summicron.

I'm not sure I would swap a Q2 for an M240? But I definitely prefer the M240.

I wear glasses for reading and have no trouble focussing the rangefinder (glasses off).

[dpitt]

7 hours ago, Besprosvet said:

.... "Performance" alone one cameras like Leica Q2 or SL2, Canon R5, Sony A7RIV is better than any M, but a Leica M drives your mind in seeing things you wouldn't see with any other system....

I started to see new things -better things- with any focal lenght

+1 It is amazing and can only be understood once you have actually used an M. I was expecting to get better results when I bought my first M, but I was surprised to see my anticipation for situations and my 'seeing the photo before you take it' improve that much, just by changing the tool I use.

[F_Stop]

While I enjoyed the camera in general, I struggled to adapt to a 28mm as I'm naturally drawn to a 35mm and 50mm. I think the M 240 with a 35 Summilux and 50 Summicron will be a great change. Thanks again for everyone's input and advice!

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[Leitz.]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:17 AM, F_Stop said:

If the Q3 includes a 50mm (which I highly doubt), I would be the first in line.

 

The SOOC jpeg's are nice, can't speak to the quality of an M240's, perhaps you could elaborate.

 

I'm not fussed about losing auto focus. I find myself focused on ensuring that the camera is focused (redundant much?) on the right target that I inevitably switch to manual focus + focus peaking. Shooting style revolves around street, landscape and still-life. I'm sure it will be a challenge to photograph my 5 year old, but then again, I see people capturing kodak moments using M cameras so it must be possible. 

 

From what I'm reading, the M 240 is plenty of camera regardless of it being nearly 12 years old and should last me a number of more years until I decide to upgrade to an M (insert number here). I'm sure the Q2 is the same...it just has this danm 28mm cemented to it ;).

If you make the trade you’ll see a lower quality output and performance and you may think you’ve just downgraded.

If you do it then know the next move is to move up from the M240. This camera will not be a keeper. Hopefully the camera and lens you’re thinking of getting don’t have problems. Used gear with issues is the worst kind.

A Fuji camera will give you just as good an image and it’ll be fast and it will have auto focus. Plus it’ll perform over ISO1600 better than the M240 (which has notoriously pretty terrible ISO performance). Maybe sell the Q2. Get a Fuji XE4+35f2 combo and take the rest of the money to buy plane tickets somewhere beautiful. 

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Edited March 5, 2023 by Leitz.