Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Erato]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

No judgement, just try to narrow down the root cause

1️⃣ potentially speck/coating paint down under

2️⃣ potentially speck/coating paint down under the Electrical Contacts plane assembly

3️⃣ potentially speck/coating paint down under the Electrical Contacts plane assembly

4️⃣, 5️⃣, 6️⃣ possible speck alone with the path according to the scratches line from your original post

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited December 18, 2022 by Erato

[jakontil]

On 12/17/2022 at 4:31 AM, Huss said:

Had it for a week.  Three rolls scratched.  All in the same place.  Different types of film, developed at different places.  All with the same scratches.

It's at Leica NJ now.  With the final roll of film, I didn't even bother to develop.  Just sacrificed a roll so Leica could see the scratches along the entire length, and sent that in with the camera.

It was very nice that Leica did pack that nice little quality assurance card with this camera, saying it had been checked over multiple times during its manufacture.  Not exactly sure what they check apart from - is it a camera? Yes/No..

Some people may say, well how could they possibly check to make sure it doesn't scratch film?  Well, just like I did...  Put a roll through it, no need to develop, look at the film.  If no scratches, we are good.  If scratches - then fix that $5600 camera before you ship it.  Is this really that complicated?  My $50 Kodak Ektar H35 camera that I recently bought does not scratch film.  But maybe I am expecting too much from a camera that cost 112 times as much?

The thing is, I am disappointed but not upset as I am fortunate enough to have other Ms to use.  But if I was someone who sold off everything to get one, the dream camera, and this happened?  I would be furious.  Anyway, I'll see how this plays out.

FYI the staff at Leica Store Los Angeles were wonderful to deal with.  Extremely apologetic, would have given me a new one - even though I didn't buy it from them - if they had any in stock.  They are handling everything.  No complaints there.  There is an irony here that this is the first new M camera that I have bought, and the only one that I have that has issues...

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

sorry it happened to you huss, i have lost faith in leica card assurance quality check lol, and it happened to a fren who got the 2022 batch MP and it scratched after he rid of everything to fulfill his dreams

[williamj]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

The M-A is a completely different camera than the MP, using all new M-A specific parts sourced internally to assist in supply side issues.  No, wait, that's what Leica said about the M6.

Dunno mate, my M-A does not scratch film.  I'm actually wondering if there are more Leica film scratchers out there, and it's just that those users do not care thinking it's part of what makes the film imperfect perfections experience so unique..

Of course, why didn’t I think of that. People add film scratches to digital for that authentic look, the camera is doing it for free. 

[Huss]

1 hour ago, logan2z said:

Yeah, My M4 has no visible screws in the pressure plate. My M-A, however, does although it's never scratched film.  I wonder when Leica switched to using screws, and why?

Yup, same with my M-A.  It has the screws in the pressure plate, but no issue.  Still it seems that Leica is pushing its luck with this, and the result depends on manufacturing and assembly tolerances.  If you have a good one, you're ok.  But if not, well, you start a thread looking for a shoulder to cry on.

[Matlock]

7 hours ago, Huss said:

The current pressure plate in the new M6 has four exposed screws that hold on the pressure plate, and apparently can scratch the film, as it did on mine.  The pressure plate in the image above has one big, glorious, screw-less surface.

The "currant" pressure plate with four screws has been in use since around 2001.

[250swb]

The first post in this thread shows a scratch running down the centre of the film so I think the screws being the culprit is a red herring given they would be nowhere near it. We are perhaps mainly thinking the scratch is happening as the film is being wound through the camera, but maybe it's when it's being rewound? Is there a possibility that when the tension is taken off to rewind the film's natural curl pushes it up against a burr underneath an area such as where the electrical contacts are? Of course this depends on which side of the film the scratch is on.

Edited December 18, 2022 by 250swb

[LocalHero1953]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I agree - the screws issue looks like a distraction unless the other scratches the OP mentions line up with them. Do the screws actually align with the exposed area of film or are they aligned with the sprockets?

[Huss]

8 minutes ago, 250swb said:

The first post in this thread shows a scratch running down the centre of the film so I think the screws being the culprit is a red herring given they would be nowhere near it. We are perhaps mainly thinking the scratch is happening as the film is being wound through the camera, but maybe it's when it's being rewound? Is there a possibility that when the tension is taken off to rewind the film's natural curl pushes it up against a burr underneath an area such as where the electrical contacts are? Of course this depends on which side of the film the scratch is on.

There are also scratches over the screws.  This one down the middle was the easiest one to photograph.

All scratches on the pressure plate side.

I mentioned this in post #14.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Huss

[Matlock]

15 minutes ago, Huss said:

There are also scratches over the screws.  This one down the middle was the easiest one to photograph.

All scratches on the pressure plate side.

I mentioned this in post #14.

Are the 2 outside scratches in the frame area? I ask as both sets of screws are outside the frame area.

[Matlock]

I find it interesting that the OP reported this issue on November 13th  with the rather implausible point of the dealer replacing the camera 3 times (when it is almost impossible to get hold of a new MP). A second post, also on November 13th, stating that he/she would report back and we still have heard nothing. Could it be a troll? 🙂 

[lmans]

I don’t think it is the screws. I am sure Leica is aware of screw placement and if it causes an issue… including scratching. That would hv been changed during the development stage. I would look at where scratches are on the negative and just follow / match it to the camera. Surprisingly it mite be an easy fix… or not:)

[M9reno]

Even if it isn't the screws themselves, which are recessed, it could be something on the mouths of the recesses they occupy.  Each screw hole presents opportunities for multiple surface imperfections.

[Huss]

7 hours ago, Matlock said:

Are the 2 outside scratches in the frame area? I ask as both sets of screws are outside the frame area.

The top set of screws are definitely in the frame area.  I just checked w my M-A.  Which does not scratch film.. the bottom set are out of the frame area.  This seems to be a case of something is obviously scratching the film, and as it is on the pressure plate side, it is a question of what.

Another user that had a film scratching MP reported his was fixed by Leica replacing the pressure plate.

[Huss]

2 hours ago, lmans said:

I don’t think it is the screws. I am sure Leica is aware of screw placement and if it causes an issue… including scratching. That would hv been changed during the development stage. I would look at where scratches are on the negative and just follow / match it to the camera. Surprisingly it mite be an easy fix… or not:)

That is why I included the entire test roll of film when the camera was shipped back.  So the professionals at Leica can compare.

you give Leica far too much credit for changing something during development.  They shipped the first batch of 35 FLE II lenses with broken apertures.  They shipped the original 50 APO w/o the internal anti flare coating.  Etc

Edited December 18, 2022 by Huss

[Huss]

Just now, Al Brown said:

The same professionals that let the film-scratching M6 be sold?

I think that term loses something in translation. 😜

[28framelines]

14 hours ago, Erato said:

No judgement, just try to narrow down the root cause

1️⃣ potentially speck/coating paint down under

2️⃣ potentially speck/coating paint down under the Electrical Contacts plane assembly

3️⃣ potentially speck/coating paint down under the Electrical Contacts plane assembly

4️⃣, 5️⃣, 6️⃣ possible speck alone with the path according to the scratches line from your original post

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

My gut is 1,2 or 3 in this diagram, or potentially 3.5 (just to the right of 3, where you can see a gap and then another sharp edge). Perhaps instead of it being the base plate, it’s part of the inside of the body of the camera.

Another option to test would be:

1. Insert new film into camera as per instructions, noting no scratches on the exposed part of the film that you had to pull out of the canister to load it in the camera. TAKE PICTURES OF THIS, with measurements.

2. Close film door, place base plate on camera.

3. Wind the film ONCE.

4. Rewind film, open film back.

5. re-load the film in the camera just like you had in step one, with your measurements for where the film was located (hopefully this can be exact).

6. note where the scratching started. Did it start at 1, 4, 5, 6, 2, or 3, based on your photos and measurements?

[dickgillberg]

Film canister?

[Huss]

23 minutes ago, dickgillberg said:

Film canister?

four different rolls of film of different brands with the scratches in the exact same places?

[28framelines]

29 minutes ago, dickgillberg said:

Film canister?

Yes. Whatever you want to call it. Roll of film. 
 

6 minutes ago, Huss said:

four different rolls of film of different brands with the scratches in the exact same places?

Ya, so if that’s happening that’s why I think the steps I provided might help. If it’s happening consistently across multiple rolls from different brands, it certainly indicates the camera is the culprit. So then, if we want to isolate where the scratch is forming, realistically we should start seeing it scratch film the first time you advance a frame. So using photos and measurements, it should be pretty clear when you look at the before and after photos where the scratch is forming. Is it on the film plate? Before the film plate as it leaves the roll? As it gets onto take up spool?

I’m a software developer, and debugging is all about isolating the problem. If you follow these steps, you should be able to see where the problem is actually occurring.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Huss]

The thing is, as ridiculous as Leica shipping cameras that damage film, I/we use them because when you have one that works correctly, there is nothing like using them.

They are just a joy to handle and can give amazing results, and I look for reasons to grab one and go take pics.  Last week I used my Nikon F6, just because I hadn’t used it for a while, and while it is an incredible camera I just don’t feel that certain, as the French say, I don’t know what…. First off, it doesn’t scratch film and I googled it to see if there were any complaints about the F6 and film scratching.  None..  

But.. I have three 50mm AF lenses to go with it - 50 1.4d, 50 1.8g and the Sigma Art 50 1.4.  The Sigma Art is incredible, Leica quality optically.  But it is so freakin huge in ways it is more of a studio lens.  It is about three times the size of Lux 50 Asph.  So I left that home as I wanted a small/more compact outfit and picked the 50 1.4d.  This lens is smaller and faster than the 1.8g, plus has an aperture ring so more of that mechanical feel.

The pics were fine, quality was fine - workmanlike if that makes sense. They’ll do the job.  But when I compared to 50mm Leica, Zeiss and CV glass that I use on Ms, they lacked that sparkle, snap and ultimate sharpness.  Those lenses are also smaller.  Only the Sigma Art matched up but the size..  And that’s why I stick with the Leica M system, joy to use, incredible lenses from several sources, great size.  Leica just needs to get an actual QA process down instead of spending time signing little gift cards.