Suggestion: Closed-Open-Closed mechanical shutter mode

[elmars]

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The M11 has the same shutter like the M10. But Leica speeded it up. So far I know only by software. I hat a camera with an early firmware version. It was slower than now. 

[thrid]

47 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

sorry. just another one non  M11 user putting out complaints and suggestion how to improve the camera.
I would suggest you try it first. make an informe opinion. and come back a week later.

I have been an M shooter for 25 years. Photography is an integral part of my professional job. That was my initial impression after spending an afternoon with the M11. I don't need to own the camera to have an opinion or form an impression of it. Like I said I will rent an M11 for a week, before deciding to buy one. But implying that only an owner is entitled to an opinion is silly.

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[Photoworks]

12 minutes ago, thrid said:

I have been an M shooter for 25 years. Photography is an integral part of my professional job. That was my initial impression after spending an afternoon with the M11. I don't need to own the camera to have an opinion or form an impression of it. Like I said I will rent an M11 for a week, before deciding to buy one. But implying that only an owner is entitled to an opinion is silly.

With all the respect I was not implying to have you buy it. Just try it. I don't want to offend anybody, not my intent.

I have see many on the M11 forum page trashing the M11. as the it turn out many times it was people that read about the M11 and complaining, but they didn't even use it.

The M11 is not going to change you life, but there are significant changes to make a difference to M10. One of them is the price.

I have been using it since the beginning of the year, I would want to go back on M10x. The shutter sound is not an issue to me as I shoot the camera like any others, by focusing on what is in-front of me, I don't even notice the sound anymore. When I shoot the people wonder if I have taken there photo because they don't hear the sound of the shutter, but I already snapped 5 frames.

[thrid]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

With all the respect I was not implying to have you buy it. Just try it. I don't want to offend anybody, not my intent.

I have see many on the M11 forum page trashing the M11. as the it turn out many times it was people that read about the M11 and complaining, but they didn't even use it.

The M11 is not going to change you life, but there are significant changes to make a difference to M10. One of them is the price.

I have been using it since the beginning of the year, I would want to go back on M10x. The shutter sound is not an issue to me as I shoot the camera like any others, by focusing on what is in-front of me, I don't even notice the sound anymore. When I shoot the people wonder if I have taken there photo because they don't hear the sound of the shutter, but I already snapped 5 frames.

No worries. I hear you.

I definitely will rent an M11 before buying to confirm or disprove my initial opinion of the new shutter cycle. Aside from the new shutter cycle I really liked the M11. The new sensor is just about as good as they come, the battery life is better than any previous M and like I said, real matrix metering is a big deal. I Just wish I had an option to switch back to the old closed-open-closed shutter cycle, even if that entails the loss of internal metering. That's all. Maybe someone at Leica will read this and give it some thought. I can't imagine that this is the first time that this is being discussed.

[IkarusJohn]

I have the option of real matrix metering (and spot and centre-weighted), traditional shutter (OVF, shutter closed-open-closed) and live sensor shutter (EVF, open-closed-open-closed-open) on my M10-D.

Sure, with the latter there is a black-out gap, but I don’t use/don’t need the EVF when the black-out would be an issue.  I use the EVF when precise exposure, focusing and framing is an issue - in all other situations, particularly when timing is an issue, I prefer the OVF.  Actually, I prefer the OVF in almost all situations, with centre-weighted metering.  I never use the continuous shutter mode.  With the OVF, I don’t need and don’t actually want the sensor live.

Now, I do consider myself a pretty traditional M user.  I’m not disrespecting the opinions and experience of those who have and enjoy their M11.  There is absolutely no reason why my experience (mostly film since ~ 1964) should affect your enjoyment of your new camera.  I also appreciate that this forum is a robust place, where people express their opinions in an open, often helpful and humourous way; but I am baffled at the disrespect so often shown to people whose experience might differ.

Every camera involves compromises and work arounds of some degree.  After investigation, some are worth buying (M10), some bought on faith don’t last and are sold (T, X1D II, D800e), others don’t get bought at all (M(240) and M11) because it is clear they are not what I want.  But each M camera is an indication of where the system is going.  My M “investment” in more than just camera bodies might end now, if the M11 is indicative of where the system is going.

That is an issue which interests me.

Edited October 23, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[ELAN]

@thrid your concerns do have merit.  I have owned and used the M11 since it was released, and while I do love it, I really don't like the new shutter experience.  It's not so much the lag (which I hardly notice) or the longer shutter sound (which I kinda got used to), it's the fact that pressing the shutter button in fast succession cause some presses not to release the shutter (and occasionally over-expose a frame in between presses).  I would use my favorite Continuous Low mode, but alas, the delayed shutter reopening after taking a single shot drives me nuts.  So I like the M11 but really hope for a different shutter experience in subsequent M models.

Last week I went back to my M10-P to once again feel a shutter experience I like.  What a pleasure to use the M10-P again.  Didn't miss the M11 one bit while taking photos.  But back in LR...  well... the IQ and metering isn't as nice as the M11.  Today I was back out with the M11.

[thrid]

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We'll see how it all plays out, but $9000 buys an awful lot of Tri-X...

😉

[Casey Jefferson]

There IS a light meter, or else camera won't estimate the aperture value. 😂

But since it's not a TTL meter, the only thing Leica can do is to include an LCD based light meter display, assignable with shortcut button. Perhaps using arrow keys and dials to adjust the exposure triangle values.

Or, M11-P with a come back of the shutter curtain metering. Just like the regular M10 with no horizon and made a come back on the P variant.

[Stevejack]

12 hours ago, Photoworks said:

sorry. just another one non  M11 user putting out complaints and suggestion how to improve the camera.
I would suggest you try it first. make an informe opinion. and come back a week later.

I can’t speak for the OP but I have the M11 and agree with him - a meterless mode with the older open-close shutter would be great. I brought this same suggestion up back when the camera was released. 
 

Leica is all about the user experience. That’s why we’re here. As digital cameras they aren’t the best at anything, other than how they feel to shoot. That’s what we pay for. 
A meterless mode with the old shutter actuation/sound would be a nice thing to have. 

[hdmesa]

On 10/23/2022 at 3:24 PM, thrid said:

We'll see how it all plays out, but $9000 buys an awful lot of Tri-X...

😉

That's a big fat "nope" for me since I don't develop and scan my own film. And my own time is more expensive than what service bureaus charge.

Versus my cost for shooting film, the M11 breaks even before 10K exposures, after which the images are free minus the electricity cost to charge the batteries.

If you factor in the cost of a new MP/M-A, break even for the M11 hits before 5K exposures.

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by hdmesa

[Tailwagger]

On 10/23/2022 at 12:42 PM, IkarusJohn said:

One thing I have been wondering, is why is there a difference between the shutter operation of the M10 in live view and the M11 with live sensor?

There isn't.  If you set a 10-R to LV... or 10... been a while... the experience from a shutter release perspective is essentially the same. Turn the camera on, there's the same shutter thunk. Take shot, shutter closes, opens, closes, opens.  Under forensic analysis there might be some slight differences in timing or sound, but I doubt most mortals could tell the difference.

On 10/23/2022 at 12:42 PM, IkarusJohn said:

Why is the shutter operation on the M11 so noticeable where the same comments were not made about the M10?  Just curious.

Outside of the general requirement to grouse about such things, I'd wager the reason there's been such a fuss around the M11 is down to most owners of earlier models spending little or no time using LV.  For those of us who've relied on it for years, it's really same old, same old... just a bit better. 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Tailwagger

[lct]

I have no experience with the M10 but it has no permanent LV i guess. With the M11, there is no choice but to endure a sluggish shutter actuation of 320ms vs 210ms for the M240 and 110ms for the digital CL. The M11 has no significant shutter lag though fortunately. See:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/334121-shutter-lag-comments-from-jesko-von-oeynhausen/?do=findComment&comment=4482320

 

[Stevejack]

5 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

There isn't.  If you set a 10-R to LV... or 10... been a while... the experience from a shutter release perspective is essentially the same. Turn the camera on, there's the same shutter thunk. Take shot, shutter closes, opens, closes, opens.  Under forensic analysis there might be some slight differences in timing or sound, but I doubt most mortals could tell the difference.

Outside of the general requirement to grouse about such things, I'd wager the reason there's been such a fuss around the M11 is down to most owners of earlier models spending little or no time using LV.  For those of us who've relied on it for years, it's really same old, same old... just a bit better. 

 

I think the M11 in live view is very good.  I really hated the M10-R and M10-M in live view. Very sluggish, long evf blackout, the polar opposite to what I would consider a good user experience. Live view on the M10 series was perfectly usable, it just didn't feel good to use. 

But while the M11 is much improved in live view, I now I miss the non-live view user experience from the M10 series... the shutter sound is very different and it feels like the regular viewfinder experience slightly is hampered by the always on live view. I much prefer the sound and (perceived) responsiveness of the M10 series when just using the rangefinder... and for me Leica is all about the user experience more than any technical ability. 

So where does this leave me? Well, I am thinking of selling my M10-M because I do like using the EVF on the M11 enough, especially on vintage / wider lenses or when precise framing is necessary, that I feel it's the better camera for me overall. And I shoot 90% in black and white so that's probably saying a lot.

[Tailwagger]

13 hours ago, lct said:

I have no experience with the M10 but it has no permanent LV i guess.

Correct, in the sense that it had reflective metering and could start the shutter sequence from the closed position unlike the M11. That said if you selected LV, turned the camera off, then back on, it behaves in the same way the M11 does.  To my mind, with the M11 Leica has embraced (or thrown in the towel depending on your POV) on the question of whether or not the M is a mirrorless camera.

10 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I really hated the M10-R and M10-M in live view. Very sluggish, long evf blackout, the polar opposite to what I would consider a good user experience.

If you hate the 10-R/M, my guess is that you never owned an M24x, at least with a Viso. Blackout times were truly glacial.  The M11 isnt perfect in this regard, nor the equal of a SL2 or late model Sony; it's probably about a generation or so behind, but IMO that is a tremendous achievement in the context of camera which with an optical RF as well. 

[lct]

8 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

To my mind, with the M11 Leica has embraced (or thrown in the towel depending on your POV) on the question of whether or not the M is a mirrorless camera.

Sure but as a consequence, the M11 has no classic mode anymore. I would not mind to this if the shutter actuation time was not that long. The next firmware update will bring some improvement hopefully.

[Photoworks]

23 hours ago, lct said:

classic mode

what is that anyway ?

M6 shutter was fabric that opened one direction and closed a different way... vertical and horizontal.

Q2 is more classic with central.

They made extra research and came up with a faster shutter for minimal blackout. and we won't to give that all up for some sound? sound that is less then M10 or M9?

[lct]

57 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

what is that anyway ?

M6 shutter was fabric that opened one direction and closed a different way... vertical and horizontal.

Q2 is more classic with central.

They made extra research and came up with a faster shutter for minimal blackout. and we won't to give that all up for some sound? sound that is less then M10 or M9?

Not sure to comprehend what you're asking exactly sorry. You know what classic mode is on digital Ms i guess. About the shutter actuation time i don't know if i can add anything useful to my link above (below again) but please feel free to elaborate is something is not clear in my posts or if you disagree with them for whatever reason .

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/334121-shutter-lag-comments-from-jesko-von-oeynhausen/?do=findComment&comment=4482320

[Photoworks]

22 hours ago, lct said:

Not sure to comprehend what you're asking exactly sorry. You know what classic mode is on digital Ms i guess. About the shutter actuation time i don't know if i can add anything useful to my link above (below again) but please feel free to elaborate is something is not clear in my posts or if you disagree with them for whatever reason .

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/334121-shutter-lag-comments-from-jesko-von-oeynhausen/?do=findComment&comment=4482320

was just asking what is classic mode to you! Going back to M246 or M10, no light meeter and no fast live view? 

Does not sound realistic to me that this can be done in firmware. The shutter is mechanical in M11.

[lct]

44 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

was just asking what is classic mode to you! Going back to M246 or M10, no light meeter and no fast live view? 

Does not sound realistic to me that this can be done in firmware. The shutter is mechanical in M11.

Classic is when live view is not activated, which is not possible with the M11 anymore. You will find technical informations about what can be done by firmware in my link above or you may wish to ask our colleague @hdmesa who knows those things much better than i do. 

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[Herr Barnack]

On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 PM, thrid said:

We'll see how it all plays out, but $9000 buys an awful lot of Tri-X...

😉

$9000 divided by $13/roll = 692 rolls of Tri-X.  And developing chemistry ain't free.  My point?  Film is not a permanent solution to the cost of making photographs.

In the end, both film and digital photographers will bleed money, one way or the other.  I don't care, though.  Photography is a quality of life issue.