Suggestion: Closed-Open-Closed mechanical shutter mode

[Photoworks]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

4 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

$9000 divided by $13/roll = 692 rolls of Tri-X.  And developing chemistry ain't free.  My point?  Film is not a permanent solution to the cost of making photographs.

In the end, both film and digital photographers will bleed money, one way or the other.  I don't care, though.  Photography is a quality of life issue. 

 

 

you forgot archiving cost and backups. LOL

[hdmesa]

On 11/3/2022 at 10:12 AM, Photoworks said:

what is that anyway ?

M6 shutter was fabric that opened one direction and closed a different way... vertical and horizontal.

Q2 is more classic with central.

They made extra research and came up with a faster shutter for minimal blackout. and we won't to give that all up for some sound? sound that is less then M10 or M9?

Re: classic – referring to all pre-M11 metering on M bodies when not in Live View. The M11 is full-time live view metering, and it no longer has the separate meter to make non-live view metering/shooting possible. Reason it gets brought up is some prefer the shorter, less noisy, non-live view shutter of previous Ms that is only possible with the old dual metering. It's been suggested Leica could add an option in firmware to the M11 so it could use the pre-M11 non-live view shutter but that would mean with no metering at all in that mode – a digital M-A for those that want it.

Edited November 4, 2022 by hdmesa

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[oldwino]

36 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

$9000 divided by $13/roll = 692 rolls of Tri-X.  And developing chemistry ain't free.  My point?  Film is not a permanent solution to the cost of making photographs.

In the end, both film and digital photographers will bleed money, one way or the other.  I don't care, though.  Photography is a quality of life issue. 

 

 

Shoot HP5, it's about $8 a roll. And while chemistry isn't as cheap as it once was, with some Rodinal and Ilford fixer it really adds about $1 per roll. I can scan with my somewhat neglected DSLR. 

So, $9000 / $9/roll = 1000 rolls. Assuming I shoot about 50 rolls a year, that's 20 years of photography. I am pretty sure my M4 will still be working fine at that point. The M11, and me? Less sure.

[thrid]

3 hours ago, Photoworks said:

was just asking what is classic mode to you! Going back to M246 or M10, no light meeter and no fast live view? 

Does not sound realistic to me that this can be done in firmware. The shutter is mechanical in M11.

Well, technically speaking it is an electronically controlled mechanical shutter, so you can manipulate it via firmware.

[hdmesa]

On 11/4/2022 at 11:09 AM, oldwino said:

Shoot HP5, it's about $8 a roll. And while chemistry isn't as cheap as it once was, with some Rodinal and Ilford fixer it really adds about $1 per roll. I can scan with my somewhat neglected DSLR. 

So, $9000 / $9/roll = 1000 rolls. Assuming I shoot about 50 rolls a year, that's 20 years of photography. I am pretty sure my M4 will still be working fine at that point. The M11, and me? Less sure.

A very different ways of shooting. Your 20 years of film shots would be considered a low shutter count for a digital camera that was only a few years old.

[P_Wijk]

On 10/23/2022 at 7:41 AM, thrid said:

Yes, I did mention that we would lose all in camera metering. But there are many situations where that is not an issue.

I believe that is a tradeoff that many shooters would be wiling to make in exchange for a traditional shutter cycle and reduced lag. It's not for everyone, but it sure would be nice to have the additional flexibility for those of us where this would make a big difference at the cost of a firmware update.

I shot my M240 and my current M10 with a handheld meter, since I don't trust the too easily confused metering system reading off the shutter curtain. Using a handheld meter combined with some experience of how the sensor would react I rarely fried the highlights. If anything my exposures were far more consistent and accurate than with the internal M240/M10 metering system. Given that the M11 has significantly more dynamic range than the M10, this should work even better and I can get along without the matrix metering just fine.

Lighting is surprisingly consistent and predictable, especially outdoors. If you are wandering the streets looking for subjects you really only need two readings. One for the sunny side of the street and a second for the shadows side. With some experiences you know how to make an adjustment to that basic reading.

I totall

 

On 10/23/2022 at 5:54 AM, thrid said:

Currently the M11 has three shutter modes.

 

• Mechanical shutter  (sensor metering open-closed-open-closed-open cycle)
• Electronic shutter
• Live view

Here's my idea

Closed-Open-Closed

I wonder if Leica could add a non-metered mechanical shutter mode. In this mode the shutter cycle is closed-open-closed, just like on a traditional M body like the M10 etc.  
You would lose internal metering, in exchange for reduced shutter lag and a more traditional shutter cycle. 

Obviously the matrix metering is highly useful, but in many cases not entirely necessary, when shooting in consistent lighting conditions.  

I have been a Leica M shooter for about 25 years. In addition to several film bodies I also have an M10. Prior to the M10 I had a 240.

Recently I had the opportunity to spend some time with the M11.

It's a very nice camera, but I found the new mechanical shutter cycle a little odd (open-closed-open-closed-open). And while the shutter lag is low, it does not feel as crisp as a film M or even the M10. Yes, I have heard all the arguments about human reaction time etc., but personally I found the new mechanical shutter cycle to be less crisp and the open-closed-open-closed cycle will take some time to get used to.

Interestingly a friend of mine who is a professional model mentioned that models often use the rhythm of the shutter to take new poses. It becomes a dance between the camera, photographer and model. She also found the new mechanical shutter cycle on the M11 to be a little odd. Not the end of the world, but not something that she was accustomed to and a very different rhythm.

In any case I think that Leica could add a traditional closed-open-closed mechanical shutter cycle mode with a firmware upgrade. For street and documentary shooters the reduced shutter lag would probably be a welcomed tradeoff in exchange for setting the exposure manually...  

 

Anyone? Herr Daniel? Anyone?

 

You may fire when ready, Gridley.

I completely agree, and now that Leica has introduced the M11-D, I would strongly recommend adding an "M-A mode" to the Leica Photos app. This would enhance the analog experience even further by disabling the light meter and simulating a manual "close-open-close" shutter cycle.

Additionally, if Leica integrates a light meter into the app, using the smartphone's camera instead of the internal camera light meter, it would bring the Leica ecosystem even closer together. I currently use the "LUX" app on my iPhone when shooting film with my M2, M3, and M-A. For these cameras, especially in complex lighting situations, the external app often provides better exposure accuracy than the built-in meter of the MP.

Ideally, the light meter should be integrated into the app and accessible without needing to connect to the camera first, since the connection is still not instantaneous. Alternatively, it could start the light meter first and connect to the camera in the background in an "M-A mode."

P.S. I've sold my M11 due to the shutter experience and won’t return until this issue is fixed.

Happy shooting from an MP, M2, and M10 Safari Shooter.

Cheers,
Per

Cheers Per

[Photoworks]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 hour ago, P_Wijk said:

I totall

 

I completely agree, and now that Leica has introduced the M11-D, I would strongly recommend adding an "M-A mode" to the Leica Photos app. This would enhance the analog experience even further by disabling the light meter and simulating a manual "close-open-close" shutter cycle.

Additionally, if Leica integrates a light meter into the app, using the smartphone's camera instead of the internal camera light meter, it would bring the Leica ecosystem even closer together. I currently use the "LUX" app on my iPhone when shooting film with my M2, M3, and M-A. For these cameras, especially in complex lighting situations, the external app often provides better exposure accuracy than the built-in meter of the MP.

Ideally, the light meter should be integrated into the app and accessible without needing to connect to the camera first, since the connection is still not instantaneous. Alternatively, it could start the light meter first and connect to the camera in the background in an "M-A mode."

P.S. I've sold my M11 due to the shutter experience and won’t return until this issue is fixed.

Happy shooting from an MP, M2, and M10 Safari Shooter.

Cheers,
Per

Cheers Per

I had a little time with the M11-D, first, the images look the same as the M11, no surprise. The menu of the function key was unclear to me, the display limited to a few characters is confusing unless you use it daily, and the flashing number and strange characters left me confused.

I don't think you can format the memory, internal, or SD in this camera, at this point, there is no option in the Fotos app.

Considering that this camera is so dependent on the FOTOS app for most functions I fear the longevity of this camera with one day not having IOS or other support.

I have a few tech devices that already don't work anymore, 3-5 years old, because the OS has updated and the app no longer supports it and the manufacturer took it off the store, or the cables have changed on the phones.

the beauty of the firm photography is that you can estimate the exposure with practice, and an external light meter can be your best friend.

[P_Wijk]

25 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I had a little time with the M11-D, first, the images look the same as the M11, no surprise. The menu of the function key was unclear to me, the display limited to a few characters is confusing unless you use it daily, and the flashing number and strange characters left me confused.

I don't think you can format the memory, internal, or SD in this camera, at this point, there is no option in the Fotos app.

Considering that this camera is so dependent on the FOTOS app for most functions I fear the longevity of this camera with one day not having IOS or other support.

I have a few tech devices that already don't work anymore, 3-5 years old, because the OS has updated and the app no longer supports it and the manufacturer took it off the store, or the cables have changed on the phones.

the beauty of the firm photography is that you can estimate the exposure with practice, and an external light meter can be your best friend.

 

I agree with your point, and I doubt Leica would discontinue support for the Photos app on iPhone—it would be a significant step in the wrong direction. Even in the unlikely event that Apple went bankrupt, I assume Leica would have a backup plan to provide a seamless digital workflow on another platform.

Regarding the "M-A mode," it should fundamentally switch from sensor-based exposure to a true non-digital exposure method, staying true to the analog experience.

 

[Photoworks]

6 hours ago, P_Wijk said:

 

I agree with your point, and I doubt Leica would discontinue support for the Photos app on iPhone—it would be a significant step in the wrong direction. Even in the unlikely event that Apple went bankrupt, I assume Leica would have a backup plan to provide a seamless digital workflow on another platform.

Regarding the "M-A mode," it should fundamentally switch from sensor-based exposure to a true non-digital exposure method, staying true to the analog experience.

 

At this point, they don't host discontinued products firmware or only the latest version and only the latest PDF, so you don't have any of the changes documentation.

M8-M9-R9 digital are already all gone from the website
 

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I don't need some weird meterless solution for the shutter sound when EFCS would solve that immediately. The camera would be quieter and faster than the M10. There would also be no shutter shock (I've tested this on the SL2/3 and M cameras). The only downside would be a need to limit the shutter to 1/2000th or lower for EFCS. Above that you get a small change to bokeh but you also get an uneven exposure which is more problematic.

I'd rather have a 1/2000th limit or a hybrid solution (camera auto switches to normal shutter at 1/200 and above) than no metering.

Gordon

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I don't need some weird meterless solution for the shutter sound when EFCS would solve that immediately. The camera would be quieter and faster than the M10. There would also be no shutter shock (I've tested this on the SL2/3 and M cameras). The only downside would be a need to limit the shutter to 1/2000th or lower for EFCS. Above that you get a small change to bokeh but you also get an uneven exposure which is more problematic.

I'd rather have a 1/2000th limit or a hybrid solution (camera auto switches to normal shutter at 1/200 and above) than no metering.

Gordon

Judging by what other manufacturers are doing to their auto/hybrid shutter options, the limit should be closer to 1/500 sec. I think the GFX 100X is the highest at 1/1600.

[Alberti]

1) as to the shuttersound: I listened to the two sound recordings (have not had the time yet for a live listen): it does not sound like a Leitz stapler at all. so I notice no bothersome close/wait/open-close - open sound, which was so annoying in the M240 and very much less so in the M10p. So I cannot really comment on the need for a traditional C-O-C cycle (with as counterside - no metering), for ergonomics sake. The loss to me would be larger. The C-O-C request to me stems from the 'annoying' sound . . .

2) but commenting on the shutter-sound (yes, there were threads on that) : wouldn't it be nice to have the sound that the analog-M's had when having half a second, I loved that sound, and it gave me great assurance how a longer exposure was developing. Ticking like a small clockwork.

Nowadays, sometimes the auto function chooses less than 1/2, to my dismay, as I never noticed . . .

 

[jgeenen]

The M240 and the M10 had a close-open-close-open shutter in live view mode (for compatibility with the normal mode). The M11 operates differently. There it is only the 2nd shutter curtain which closes after triggering the shutter. Effectively it is just a „deferred“ full shutter cycle where only the first shutter curtain is rewound after exposure. This makes the M11 shutter comparingly quiet and responsive. Adding a M-A mode as suggested would increase shutter and software complexity without improving the shutter operation at all (except the slight lag for the second curtain to move back before exposure).

To get a fully „analogue“ feeling (whatever that is) I suggest to remove the shutter completely and add a speaker (and vibrator device) that chimes in the shutter sound on exposure. Imagine for a second - one might be able to fine-tune shutter sound completely to mimic M3, M7 or M9 sounds (including the cocking hiss….)

[DadDadDaddyo]

So, I looked it up. 

Average human reaction time overall = 250 milliseconds. 

With training, human reaction time can typically be reduced to around 200 milliseconds. 

Reaction time to light = 190 milliseconds. 

Time for reaction to be detectable in brain activity ranges from 13 to 70 milliseconds.

Conscious brain processing following a reaction ranges from 75 to 150 milliseconds. That precedes sending the instruction to a finger to press a button. 

My point? There are a lot of things in the process that take time. 

Speaking from personal experience, and only from personal experience, and speaking only as it relates to my own photography, I have never found the time interval between shutter press and shutter actuation to make a discernable difference to the success or failure of my photographs. It never even occurred to me as an issue until I read about it here.

Every camera I've ever used requires practice to achieve predictable and consistent results. For example, I practice when to hit the shutter to catch people's strides in the intended position. This has always required practice, going back over 50 years of working with Leicas  

I'm not denying it's an issue to other folks. I'm just saying that in my own work, I regard it merely as something to work with.

I've got bigger fish to fry...