Second M body (open to suggestions)

[dpitt]

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57 minutes ago, VanDooglz said:

It doesn't matter. All Leica M cameras are the same. The differences between them exists only on the Internet and popularized by photographers powered by fully mechanical pacemakers.

Do you really think that?

How many did you try out yourself? The difference in viewfinders alone is large enough for some to prefer one or avoid an other.

Maybe, one of the best things the OP can do is go to a shop that has all the models that he is interested in.
Take each one in hand and to your eye once. Crank it  a few times. It will not take long to see and notice most of the handling and optical differences. Then go home and reflect about what you saw and read up on a few models.

[Pyrogallol]

Getting s second body is just the first step to starting a collection!

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[Radost]

2 hours ago, VanDooglz said:

It doesn't matter. All Leica M cameras are the same. The differences between them exists only on the Internet and popularized by photographers powered by fully mechanical pacemakers.

Except M3 viewfinder is a lot brighter than m4 m4-2 cameras.

Only m3 has the 50mm frame line .91 magnification.

If anything leicas are decided by:

M3 and all the rest.

m3 .91

rest .72

Later m6 ma mp .72 but have options for .58 and .85

If you like 50mm I can not overstate how cool .91 is. 

I use to hate how the m3 look. But .91 is such a pleasure that I started psychologically to like the look now.

 

[Studienkamera]

18 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

Getting s second body is just the first step to starting a collection!

 Not that there is anything wrong with that

[cesc]

I had M6, M3, M2 before the MP, just wondering if MA is really well built compared to an M2 for example. Or M2 CLAd and the savings from not buying the MA could go for darkroom printing material, film stock, ... I am happy with my lenses for now 

[Anbaric]

19 hours ago, cesc said:

I'm currently considering purchasing a second M body to complement my existing chrome MP, which I acquired a brand new last year and has thankfully remained free from any film-scratching issues. I'm contemplating acquiring another body, either in black chrome or paint finish. A light meter isn't a requirement for me, I prefer not to have one, the shutter release system with the meter bothers me a bit. (long pressure)

While I deeply respect Leica and its craftsmanship, I do have some concerns regarding the current build quality of their M film cameras compared to earlier versions. With this in mind, I'm deliberating whether it might be a more prudent decision to invest in a CLAd and painted M2 rather than opting for a new MA model. Any insights or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I would think about the practical things first:

What framelines do you need? Nothing earlier than the M4-P has the full set like your MP. On the other hand, some people prefer the less cluttered finders of the earlier models, and you won't miss the framelines of a lens you never use.

Do you care about the rewind system? Starting with the M4, they switched from a knob to a crank (and then back to the knob for your retro-style MP and the M-A). The crank is faster, which might be useful, though some people feel the knob is more solid.

They removed a condenser lens from the rangefinder at some point during M4-2 production, and only restored it with the MP. This makes models without it more vulnerable to RF patch flare, which bothers some people more than others (not a dealbreaker for me).

The M2 and M3 have a slower loading system than the later cameras, though you can easily retrofit them with this kit at extra expense.

I wouldn't worry about build quality. All the Ms are exceptionally well made cameras by any normal standard.

[williamj]

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11 hours ago, Radost said:

CLE CL are not robust?

Ok People have some perceptions about electronic shutter cameras but why is the CL not robust?

I beat up mine so much.

Not to mention if you want to shoot 40mm both are the best choice.

I excluded the CL/CLE because part of the body shell is made of plastic and the OP was concerned about build quality in the later M series Leicas. As CLs are 50 years old now that's pretty old plastic. Some people mark the later M series down because they have bits of plastic in the shot counter. Cheers.

[williamj]

9 hours ago, VanDooglz said:

It doesn't matter. All Leica M cameras are the same. The differences between them exists only on the Internet and popularized by photographers powered by fully mechanical pacemakers.

I'd accept your argument about pacemakers, they are replaced every 5-7 years, if Leica kept a stock of replacement electronic shutters, but there are none to my knowledge. I say enjoy them while they last :). Cheers.

[Radost]

29 minutes ago, williamj said:

I excluded the CL/CLE because part of the body shell is made of plastic and the OP was concerned about build quality in the later M series Leicas. As CLs are 50 years old now that's pretty old plastic. Some people mark the later M series down because they have bits of plastic in the shot counter. Cheers.

What is plastic in the CL?

[Radost]

31 minutes ago, williamj said:

I'd accept your argument about pacemakers, they are replaced every 5-7 years, if Leica kept a stock of replacement electronic shutters, but there are none to my knowledge. I say enjoy them while they last :). Cheers.

I assume they change the pacemakers every 7 years for: Profit! First it coast money to change. Second they probably did what leica did: reduce the quality of materials for profit. 

Electronic shutters are a lot more accurate and robust. Not to mention can go up to 8000 speed. If somebody makes an electronic shutter leica with at least 4000 speed i will buy it. I sold my hexar RF out of fear but being able to have a 400iso film in shoot at the beach and than in the evening was amazing. 

All those new digital leicas that people are buying for $10000 have electronic shutters. 

 

Edited February 24 by Radost

[Pyrogallol]

33 minutes ago, Radost said:

What is plastic in the CL?

The plastic bits of the take up spool that you clip the film under can break off after time. That happened to this one and the film was then free wheeling without winding onto the spool. I glued back the one leaf that had broken ( it was loose inside the camera) and now add a bit of masking tape as well to fix the film to the takeup spool. There is someone selling replacement spools who says they are easy to fit, but I have read on the forum that you have to take a lot of the camera apart to fit a new spool. The same would apply to the M5 spool.

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Edited February 24 by Pyrogallol

[Pyrogallol]

1 hour ago, williamj said:

I excluded the CL/CLE because part of the body shell is made of plastic and the OP was concerned about build quality in the later M series Leicas. As CLs are 50 years old now that's pretty old plastic. Some people mark the later M series down because they have bits of plastic in the shot counter. Cheers.

I bought an M4-2 in a real auction, not on the internet, it works well, once the slow speeds had been given a bit of exercise, but the frame counter does not work. I understand that it has a plastic gear that breaks.

[Radost]

12 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

The plastic bits of the take up spool that you clip the film under can break off after time. That happened to this one and the film was then free wheeling without winding onto the spool. I glued back the one leaf that had broken ( it was loose inside the camera) and now add a bit of masking tape as well to fix the film to the takeup spool. There is someone selling replacement spools who says they are easy to fit, but I have read on the forum that you have to take a lot of the camera apart to fit a new spool. The same would apply to the M5 spool.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

2 cameras never a problem. I heard other people break them. 

[Anbaric]

The CL has some particular vulnerabilities. A broken takeup spool is one of the commonest (there is a reason why other Leicas use metal). They realised there was a problem and added a brass bush to later CL spools. The electromechanical light meter is often dead or inaccurate at this point. The CdS cell has a much more limited lifespan than the silicon cell used in cameras like the M6 and degrades over time, leading to loss of sensitivity. The coil can stick and the mechanical linkages can be disrupted by a knock. The rangefinder prism is 'silvered' with aluminium, which can also degrade. If left too long between services, the unlubricated shutter gears can seize up completely. The viewfinder is glued in position by epoxy resin, and if this cracks it can fall out.

On the plus side there are technicians who can restore them to fully working condition - I think DAG and Cameraworks UK still work on them. Sadly Peter Grisaffi, author of the link above, is no longer with us.

Edited February 25 by Anbaric

[Al Brown]

The camera inside is made of cost saving materials (compared to other M Leicas), some space saving build solutions are present and once you open it you start realizing how fragile the interior actually is... definitely not for professional use because many things can go wrong even at the smallest force or impact...
Check the interior of a CL I repaired yourselves:

 

Edited February 25 by Al Brown

[Radost]

5 hours ago, Al Brown said:

The camera inside is made of cost saving materials (compared to other M Leicas), some space saving build solutions are present and once you open it you start realizing how fragile the interior actually is... definitely not for professional use because many things can go wrong even at the smallest force or impact...
Check the interior of a CL I repaired yourselves:

 

I don’t see it. 

The gears look metal. I don’t care about the light meter in fact at some point I will take it out. 

My minolta Leitz CL does not even have a case and has been abused for a long time and rangefinder and speeds are correct. DOnt know about slow speeds.
One of my 3 CLE “my daily driver” has been dropped multiple times and apart from vertical rangefinder going a little off everything is fine. 

 

 

[Al Brown]

1 minute ago, Radost said:

I don’t see it. 

The gears look metal. I don’t care about the light meter in fact at some point I will take it out. 

My minolta Leitz CL does not even have a case and has been abused for a long time and rangefinder and speeds are correct. DOnt know about slow speeds.
One of my 3 CLE “my daily driver” has been dropped multiple times and apart from vertical rangefinder going a little off everything is fine. 

 

 

You don't have to believe me, I have merely taken the camera apart and repaired it, what do I know.

[Radost]

16 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

You don't have to believe me, I have merely taken the camera apart and repaired it, what do I know.

I don’t think we shoot leica for the reliability.  I shoot leica for the lenses. Especially the 28mm

 So many SLRs are way more robust than a leica. Especially when it comes to focus.

 

Leica is the only camera where I am super scared in the sun. 

https://www.dagcamera.com/store/p145/How_Long_Does_It_Take_To_Burn_a_Hole_in_a_Shutter_Curtain%3F.html

I had my 50mm 2nd gen sumilux for 5 days at the beach at Oceanside California and was super paranoid not to burn my SHutter.

 

. 

 

Edited February 25 by Radost

[Radost]

16 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

You don't have to believe me, I have merely taken the camera apart and repaired it, what do I know.

What exactly was broken? Nothing. The slow speed was slower  and sticky. Happens with Leica Ms as well.

Edited February 25 by Radost

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[Al Brown]

1 minute ago, Radost said:

What exactly was broken? Nothing. The slow speed was slower  and sticky. Happens with Leica Ms as well.

Your CLs are fine after abuse so what everybody says about inferior craftsmanship must not exist. Moving on.