Suggestion: Closed-Open-Closed mechanical shutter mode

[thrid]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Currently the M11 has three shutter modes.

 

• Mechanical shutter  (sensor metering open-closed-open-closed-open cycle)
• Electronic shutter
• Live view

Here's my idea

Closed-Open-Closed

I wonder if Leica could add a non-metered mechanical shutter mode. In this mode the shutter cycle is closed-open-closed, just like on a traditional M body like the M10 etc.  
You would lose internal metering, in exchange for reduced shutter lag and a more traditional shutter cycle. 

Obviously the matrix metering is highly useful, but in many cases not entirely necessary, when shooting in consistent lighting conditions.  

I have been a Leica M shooter for about 25 years. In addition to several film bodies I also have an M10. Prior to the M10 I had a 240.

Recently I had the opportunity to spend some time with the M11.

It's a very nice camera, but I found the new mechanical shutter cycle a little odd (open-closed-open-closed-open). And while the shutter lag is low, it does not feel as crisp as a film M or even the M10. Yes, I have heard all the arguments about human reaction time etc., but personally I found the new mechanical shutter cycle to be less crisp and the open-closed-open-closed cycle will take some time to get used to.

Interestingly a friend of mine who is a professional model mentioned that models often use the rhythm of the shutter to take new poses. It becomes a dance between the camera, photographer and model. She also found the new mechanical shutter cycle on the M11 to be a little odd. Not the end of the world, but not something that she was accustomed to and a very different rhythm.

In any case I think that Leica could add a traditional closed-open-closed mechanical shutter cycle mode with a firmware upgrade. For street and documentary shooters the reduced shutter lag would probably be a welcomed tradeoff in exchange for setting the exposure manually...  

 

Anyone? Herr Daniel? Anyone?

 

You may fire when ready, Gridley.

[IkarusJohn]

Nice idea, but no meter.  At all.

The reason the M11 has a permanently live shutter is that the metering marks on the shutter have been removed and there is no reader in the bottom of the lens mount throat.  On the M11, if the sensor isn’t live, there’s no exposure metering.  So, your proposal would make the M11 like a digital M-A … not very practical.

It might work if the sensor was totally ISO variable - ie, you don’t need to get the exposure right at all, with every image captured at notional base ISO, and then adjusted in post.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[thrid]

45 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Nice idea, but no meter.  At all.

The reason the M11 has a permanently live shutter is that the metering marks on the shutter have been removed and there is no reader in the bottom of the lens mount throat.  On the M11, if the sensor isn’t live, there’s no exposure metering.  So, your proposal would make the M11 like a digital M-A … not very practical.

It might work if the sensor was totally ISO variable - ie, you don’t need to get the exposure right at all, with every image captured at notional base ISO, and then adjusted in post.

Yes, I did mention that we would lose all in camera metering. But there are many situations where that is not an issue.

I believe that is a tradeoff that many shooters would be wiling to make in exchange for a traditional shutter cycle and reduced lag. It's not for everyone, but it sure would be nice to have the additional flexibility for those of us where this would make a big difference at the cost of a firmware update.

I shot my M240 and my current M10 with a handheld meter, since I don't trust the too easily confused metering system reading off the shutter curtain. Using a handheld meter combined with some experience of how the sensor would react I rarely fried the highlights. If anything my exposures were far more consistent and accurate than with the internal M240/M10 metering system. Given that the M11 has significantly more dynamic range than the M10, this should work even better and I can get along without the matrix metering just fine.

Lighting is surprisingly consistent and predictable, especially outdoors. If you are wandering the streets looking for subjects you really only need two readings. One for the sunny side of the street and a second for the shadows side. With some experiences you know how to make an adjustment to that basic reading.

Edited October 23, 2022 by thrid

[105012]

1 hour ago, thrid said:

...

I wonder if Leica could add a non-metered mechanical shutter mode. In this mode the shutter cycle is closed-open-closed, just like on a traditional M body like the M10 etc.  

You would lose internal metering, in exchange for reduced shutter lag and a more traditional shutter cycle. 

...

Agree:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/330888-computer-mediated-metering/?do=findComment&comment=4405176

[IkarusJohn]

As an M-A user, I do use incident readings with a light meter. But I do like the averaged centre-weighted metering of my Monochrom and my M10-D. 

If the issue was truly internal reflection, it would have been great to have found a better solution than a permanently live sensor. I have both options with my M10-D and almost never use matrix metering. 

I would prefer no metering at all, as you suggest, than the current M11 arrangements.

In a minority, again …

 

[thrid]

IkarusJohn Don't get me wrong. The M11 matrix metering mode is a welcomed addition.  It's a feature that many of us have been clamoring for, for a very long time. I have no doubt that I would use it in situations with fast changing lighting conditions. 

But I wasn't too thrilled about the shutter release / cycle on the M11 to the point that I started to look at prices for an M10R.

At the same time I really do want the new M11 sensor with the increased dynamic range.

A simple firmware up date with the option of a traditional closed-open-closed shutter cycle would allow a lot of us to have our cake and eat it and Leica can have some more of my hard earned money.

Edited October 23, 2022 by thrid

[SrMi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Leica M11 has two shutter types: mechanical and electronic (the live view is not a shutter type). The camera is missing the common EFCS shutter type (electronic first curtain shutter). EFCS has the shortest shutter lag of all three types while maintaining metering and live-view functionality. EFCS operation is: opened-closed-opened.
I do not think losing metering is worth it for a more traditional clink-clank sound.
Also, the shutter lag difference between M11 and M10 has been measured by different people using different methods: the difference is inconsequential.

[elmars]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

Also, the shutter lag difference between M11 and M10 has been measured by different people using different methods: the difference is inconsequential.

So it is. But it is also true imO: The shutter sound is not the usual M-quality-level. 

[darylgo]

I agree the shutter should be prioritized over metering.  That Leica chose the M11 sequence is why I’m waiting for the M11-P.  First generational changes are generally improved in the P version.  
 

[elmars]

Don‘t expect too much. I asked a Leica guy: A different shutter operations needs a new shutter. It seems unlikely to me that an M11-P will get a new one. 

[thrid]

6 hours ago, elmars said:

Don‘t expect too much. I asked a Leica guy: A different shutter operations needs a new shutter. It seems unlikely to me that an M11-P will get a new one. 

Sounds like the mechanical design does not require any electricity for the shutter to be open and is only expended for it to be closed.

[thrid]

8 hours ago, SrMi said:

Leica M11 has two shutter types: mechanical and electronic (the live view is not a shutter type). The camera is missing the common EFCS shutter type (electronic first curtain shutter). EFCS has the shortest shutter lag of all three types while maintaining metering and live-view functionality. EFCS operation is: opened-closed-opened.I do not think losing metering is worth it for a more traditional clink-clank sound.



Also, the shutter lag difference between M11 and M10 has been measured by different people using different methods: the difference is inconsequential.

Ok, live view is a shutter mode or whatever you want to define it as. We're splitting hairs here.

Would EFCS also suffer from rolling shutter issues?

I am suggesting this as an additional mode. As I said, for some people the loss of internal metering is irrelevant, in exchange for a more traditional shutter cycle and reduced lag. If you have no desire to use this mode, then just ignore it.

Regardless of the testing I can feel a difference in the shutter release compared to my M2 / M4 and M10. It is not as crisp and decisive. It can be difficult to determine exactly, when the picture is taken. With the old shutter it was 'snick!' and you knew exactly when the shot was taken 9ms later. The new shutter cycle is not a big deal if you are photographing static or slow moving subjects, but in fast moving situations where you are taking a snap in an instant it makes a difference. As a test I tried to time my shots to the foot of a person touching the pavement and the instant of the picture being taken felt less defined and somewhat vague.

Edited October 23, 2022 by thrid

[Photoworks]

42 minutes ago, thrid said:

Ok, live view is a shutter mode or whatever you want to define it as. We're splitting hairs here.

Would EFCS also suffer from rolling shutter issues?

I am suggesting this as an additional mode. As I said, for some people the loss of internal metering is irrelevant, in exchange for a more traditional shutter cycle and reduced lag. If you have no desire to use this mode, then just ignore it.

Regardless of the testing I can feel a difference in the shutter release compared to my M2 / M4 and M10. It is not as crisp and decisive. It can be difficult to determine exactly, when the picture is taken. With the old shutter it was 'snick!' and you knew exactly when the shot was taken 9ms later. The new shutter cycle is not a big deal if you are photographing static or slow moving subjects, but in fast moving situations where you are taking a snap in an instant it makes a difference. As a test I tried to time my shots to the foot of a person touching the pavement and the instant of the picture being taken felt less defined and somewhat vague.

I suppose the M11 is not for you... just sell it!

[SrMi]

 

43 minutes ago, thrid said:

Ok, live view is a shutter mode or whatever you want to define it as. We're splitting hairs here.

What is then the difference between live view shutter and electronic shutter?

43 minutes ago, thrid said:

Would EFCS also suffer from rolling shutter issues?

No, EFCS has no rolling shutter issues as the second curtain is mechanical. The issue with EFCS is that it does not work well for higher shutter speeds. Cameras that offer EFCS often provide an automatic switch from EFCS to mechanical shutter.

46 minutes ago, thrid said:

Regardless of the testing I can feel a difference in the shutter release compared to my M2 / M4 and M10. It is not as crisp and decisive. It can be difficult to determine exactly, when the picture is taken. With the old shutter it was 'snick!' and you knew exactly when the shot was taken 9ms later.

There is no way that M10 has a shutter lag of only 9ms. 

Because there is shutter operation after the image was taken, it may feel as if the lag is longer, but it is only slightly longer than with M10 as seen in practice and by measurements.

[thrid]

4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

 

What is then the difference between live view shutter and electronic shutter?

No, EFCS has no rolling shutter issues as the second curtain is mechanical. The issue with EFCS is that it does not work well for higher shutter speeds. Cameras that offer EFCS often provide an automatic switch from EFCS to mechanical shutter.

How does EFCS not work well for higher shutter speeds and above what speeds do the issues start to appear? 

 

4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

There is no way that M10 has a shutter lag of only 9ms. 

Because there is shutter operation after the image was taken, it may feel as if the lag is longer, but it is only slightly longer than with M10 as seen in practice and by measurements.

The film bodies like the M2 / M4 have a shutter lag around 9-12ms. That was a commonly quoted figure long before there were digital M's. I think I remember that Red Dot rated the M10 at 12ms, but I would have to go back and check.

.

14 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I suppose the M11 is not for you... just sell it!

I haven't purchased one, yet. I may rent one for a week to do more testing. I want to make sure it works for me if I am going to trade in my M10 and spend a few thousand dollars.

 

In any case I am putting this out there. It's not a fundamental change to how to camera operates, but an additional function that would be helpful to some people. If it's not beneficial to others then they can just ignore it.

 

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, thrid said:

The film bodies like the M2 / M4 have a shutter lag around 9-12ms. That was a commonly quoted figure long before there were digital M's. I think I remember that Red Dot rated the M10 at 12ms, but I would have to go back and check.

Red Dot measured 11ms lag for M10 and 13ms lag for M11 (mechanical).

At shutter speeds higher than approx 1/1000 sec EFCS bokeh can suffer, and there may be other issues that I forgot about.

[SrMi]

20 minutes ago, thrid said:

In any case I am putting this out there. It's not a fundamental change to how to camera operates, but an additional function that would be helpful to some people. If it's not beneficial to others then they can just ignore it.

IMO, that would go against Leica’s core values: das Wesentliche.

[Photoworks]

37 minutes ago, thrid said:

I haven't purchased one, yet. I may rent one for a week to do more testing. I want to make sure it works for me if I am going to trade in my M10 and spend a few thousand dollars.

 

sorry. just another one non  M11 user putting out complaints and suggestion how to improve the camera.
I would suggest you try it first. make an informe opinion. and come back a week later.

[IkarusJohn]

One thing I have been wondering, is why is there a difference between the shutter operation of the M10 in live view and the M11 with live sensor?  I use my M10-D with the EVF, and there is the clunk as the shutter opens when you turn the camera on - I assume this is the same as with the M11.  Simiilarly, when you press the shutter with the M10 series cameras (and with the M(240) when in live view mode), the shutter closes, opens to expose the image, closes, then opens again for live view.

With the T, this whole operation was hopeflessly slow; not so much with the TL2; there were similar complaints with the first EVF on the M(240); but, the M10 operation is relatively smooth.

Why is the shutter operation on the M11 so noticeable where the same comments were not made about the M10?  Just curious.

Edited October 23, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Photoworks]

In my opinion the M10 live view mode was unusable unless you just doing a single shot. If you should do a portrait and snap a few, you only seeing black until you stop shooting.

M11 has a new shutter that is fast. Allows you to shoot like the M10 in non live view. Still some blackout but usable.
 

I imagine the next step would be not shutter at all. but it will take few years. and there is no proof anyone needs it!