New Leica M6 Film Camera

[Anbaric]

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19 hours ago, Matlock said:

Given the number of M6, M6TTL and late M4-Ps constructed (well over 130000) the number of reported bubbling is miniscule.

I've mentioned before that I found 4 of 20 M6 bodies I looked at on sale a few months back had some degree of bubbling. Yesterday, I looked at the first 10 that came up in an ebay search, and at least 2 had bubbling (one bad). This morning, I looked at the stock at a specialist Leica dealer, and 1 of 8 had bubbling. Hard to guess how common this is without a large random sample, but I think the numbers are more than miniscule or they wouldn't be so easy to find.

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[Matlock]

20 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

I've mentioned before that I found 4 of 20 M6 bodies I looked at on sale a few months back had some degree of bubbling. Yesterday, I looked at the first 10 that came up in an ebay search, and at least 2 had bubbling (one bad). This morning, I looked at the stock at a specialist Leica dealer, and 1 of 8 had bubbling. Hard to guess how common this is without a large random sample, but I think the numbers are more than miniscule or they wouldn't be so easy to find.

So you have come up with around 7 examples. Out of 134000+ cameras made do you consider that to be a high number? More of the scaremongering comments that do no one any good. Reading the various posts on the M6 and new M6 it would seem that everyone is clamouring for the original zinc models, interesting. I don't know what it is about this forum but we have post after post about bubbling of M6s and failure of the meters on the original M6 neither of which have any evidence in fact.

[Anbaric]

1 minute ago, Matlock said:

So you have come up with around 7 examples. Out of 134000+ cameras made do you consider that to be a high number?

I've come up with 7 examples out of only 38 that I looked at (around 18%). That is how a sample works. We can't say 'out of 134000+ cameras', because nobody has examined anything like that many. You've suggested in the past that 99.9% of zinc cameras are OK, which would mean that there are only about 134 affected ones in the world. Without really trying, I've stumbled across 7 after looking at fewer than 40, which suggests the problem is much more common than that. This is not scaremongering, it's just what I see. Feel free to do your own survey and post the results!

If we want to put a hard number on it, the question is whether my sample is representative or not. Maybe cameras are more likely to be on sale if they have bubbles. Maybe cameras without bubbles are snapped up more quickly, so I'm less likely to see them on any given day (though the blemished cameras are probably cheaper, which may compensate for this). Maybe, by chance, my small sample is simply unpresentative of M6s in general. 18% seems unexpectedly high to me, but if I were betting money on it I would guess the true figure is much more likely to be 'several percent' rather than 'a small fraction of one percent'. That said, if I needed to replace my zinc M6 (which is fine) with another one, I'd be happy to do so if it had no sign of corrosion after 20+ years, though I might think twice about current prices.

As for the meters, nobody has suggested failure is common, but it clearly does happen (and will happen more in the future as the components age), which is why some of the most respected technicians are highlighting the unavailability of parts as an issue. Personally, I think it's positive that both Leica and Alan Starkie are looking at fixing this. As Alan puts it 'You can't complain really. The first M6 was 1984 and circuit boards have only just become unavailable. That's nearly 40 years but these cameras have at least another 40 years life in them. For that reason I fully intend to redesign the metering and produce replacement circuit boards.'

[Danner]

3 hours ago, Al Brown said:

The numbers just in from the official source. Leica’s planned quantity for the new M6 reissue.  So not a limited edition but still not unlimited. I guess that is their projection for M6 sales. This actually is a very important document for future reference.

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That's a large quantity.  Leica usually reserves serial numbers by lots, often time 1000, or 2000 units per lot.  An initial lot of 3000 is the most I can recollect for a M-body run.

 

Per CameraQuest:

Edited November 3, 2022 by Danner

[Matlock]

39 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

I've come up with 7 examples out of only 38 that I looked at (around 18%). That is how a sample works. We can't say 'out of 134000+ cameras', because nobody has examined anything like that many. You've suggested in the past that 99.9% of zinc cameras are OK, which would mean that there are only about 134 affected ones in the world. Without really trying, I've stumbled across 7 after looking at fewer than 40, which suggests the problem is much more common than that. This is not scaremongering, it's just what I see. Feel free to do your own survey and post the results!

If we want to put a hard number on it, the question is whether my sample is representative or not. Maybe cameras are more likely to be on sale if they have bubbles. Maybe cameras without bubbles are snapped up more quickly, so I'm less likely to see them on any given day (though the blemished cameras are probably cheaper, which may compensate for this). Maybe, by chance, my small sample is simply unpresentative of M6s in general. 18% seems unexpectedly high to me, but if I were betting money on it I would guess the true figure is much more likely to be 'several percent' rather than 'a small fraction of one percent'. That said, if I needed to replace my zinc M6 (which is fine) with another one, I'd be happy to do so if it had no sign of corrosion after 20+ years, though I might think twice about current prices.

As for the meters, nobody has suggested failure is common, but it clearly does happen (and will happen more in the future as the components age), which is why some of the most respected technicians are highlighting the unavailability of parts as an issue. Personally, I think it's positive that both Leica and Alan Starkie are looking at fixing this. As Alan puts it 'You can't complain really. The first M6 was 1984 and circuit boards have only just become unavailable. That's nearly 40 years but these cameras have at least another 40 years life in them. For that reason I fully intend to redesign the metering and produce replacement circuit boards.'

You have made some valid points but I still maintain that the number is very low. As I have said before, I have never seen a M6 (or M4-P or M6TTL) with bubbling and I know of no one who has, other than on this forum. How many have you actually seen and handled? Without examining all M6s sold (which, of course, would be impossible) we will never know the true number affected but I am willing to bet it is tiny.

[mshchem]

5 hours ago, Anbaric said:

The new customer selection process is pretty challenging. Remember that in the Latin alphabet, the second letter of Summicron is a V.

 

That's perfect! 

[ianman]

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1 hour ago, Matlock said:

You have made some valid points but I still maintain that the number is very low. As I have said before, I have never seen a M6 (or M4-P or M6TTL) with bubbling and I know of no one who has, other than on this forum. How many have you actually seen and handled? Without examining all M6s sold (which, of course, would be impossible) we will never know the true number affected but I am willing to bet it is tiny.

Excepted the “I love my M…” people will usually post more about issues with their M than post about the fact that all is well. It’s normal that in a forum such as this one we see a higher ratio of posts about problematic gear which doesn’t reflect the real world at all. I’ve never seen an M6 with bubbling.

[Matlock]

2 minutes ago, ianman said:

Excepted the “I love my M…” people will usually post more about issues with their M than post about the fact that all is well. It’s normal that in a forum such as this one we see a higher ratio of posts about problematic gear which doesn’t reflect the real world at all. I’ve never seen an M6 with bubbling.

Very true Ian. I belong to another forum (nothing to do with cameras) and it is full of complaints about what is, supposably, their favourite item.

[Huss]

November 3.   Release date.  Supposedly.  Only 18 more pages to make it to 100.  Will we make it before someone actually gets a new M6?

[Mikep996]

"Will we make it before someone actually gets a new M6?"

I'm doing my part!!!"

Fwiw, in 1984, the first batch of M6's was 2000 cameras.  From what I can understand, they made the second batch the following year.  I ASSUME (you know what they say about assumptions) that if the first batch of new M6s didn't sell (yeah, right!) they wouldn't make another batch until they felt there was sufficient demand to justify it.  

[BradS]

8 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

....if the first batch of new M6s didn't sell, they wouldn't make another batch until they felt there was sufficient demand to justify it.  

 

I very seriously doubt that Leica would "give up" that easily. Especially considering that the company is, apparently, quite financially healthy at present.

Edited November 3, 2022 by BradS

[lmans]

I do not have a MP.....so I can't tell you the lure for it or against, but if someone is not given a choice (M6 and MP), eventually, they will purchase the M6 as it is the only one available and essentially it is the same camera.

[a.noctilux]

15 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

"Will we make it before someone actually gets a new M6?"

I'm doing my part!!!"

Fwiw, in 1984, the first batch of M6's was 2000 cameras.  From what I can understand, they made the second batch the following year.  I ASSUME (you know what they say about assumptions) that if the first batch of new M6s didn't sell (yeah, right!) they wouldn't make another batch until they felt there was sufficient demand to justify it.  

From my 8th Leica Pocket Book,

1984 ...2000 units

1985  12,600

1986 14,070

etc.

just opposite page,

M4-P

1981  6735 units

1982  6160

1983  5340

...

1987  69

 

Just to say that 3,000 units for new M6 of 2022 is not that "unattainable".

 

 

[mshchem]

I would like to know if there's any kind of inventory of the new camera. Leica talked about today (November 3rd) like there would be cameras . Don't know if they are taking orders that will take a year to fill. 🤔

[hdmesa]

10 hours ago, Al Brown said:

The numbers just in from the official source. Leica’s planned quantity for the new M6 reissue.  So not a limited edition but still not unlimited. I guess that is their projection for M6 sales. This actually is a very important document for future reference.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

They didn’t stop at planned quantity for the Q, they just kept going. Is it different with the film bodies?

[Huss]

1 hour ago, mshchem said:

I would like to know if there's any kind of inventory of the new camera. Leica talked about today (November 3rd) like there would be cameras . Don't know if they are taking orders that will take a year to fill. 🤔

October 20th was when we could order the cameras, and pay for them.  So what is November 3rd for?  To say ok, now you will wait?  Officially?  Trying to understand here...

Aaannnnddddd my cc has been charged.  So it's not like they charge it only when they actually have the camera ready to ship.

(are we still on page 82 or is it 83 now?)

Edited November 3, 2022 by Huss

[romualdo]

7 hours ago, Matlock said:

You have made some valid points but I still maintain that the number is very low. As I have said before, I have never seen a M6 (or M4-P or M6TTL) with bubbling and I know of no one who has, other than on this forum. How many have you actually seen and handled? Without examining all M6s sold (which, of course, would be impossible) we will never know the true number affected but I am willing to bet it is tiny.

I had a black chrome "bubbly" M6 - never bothered me as it didn't effect my picture taking (what was annoying though was the flaring) - I actually sold it for more than I initially paid to fund a second hand BP MP

[BradS]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

....my cc has been charged.  So it's not like they charge it only when they actually have the camera ready to ship.

 

Actually, if it has been charged then, I think it does mean that the camera is shipping. Only caveat is that it might just be a "hold". If the status of the charge is, "processing" then it's not yet actually charged...it could just sit at "processing" until they do actually ship. But if it transitions from "processing" to...well, an actual charge, then it has to be in shipping....there is some legal stuff around this.

 

(still page 82 )

Edited November 3, 2022 by BradS

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[mshchem]

My CC was charged as "pending" now there's nothing showing? Samy's still shows that I have one on order. I think maybe they routinely run the card to check your credit. I'm not expecting anything right away. 

[Huss]

5 minutes ago, BradS said:

 

Actually, if it has been charged then, I think it does mean that the camera is shipping. Only caveat is that it might just be a "hold". If the status of the charge is, "processing" then it's not yet actually charged...it could just sit at "processing" until they do actually ship. But if it transitions from "processing" to...well, an actual charge, then it has to be in shipping....there is some legal stuff around this.

 

(still page 82 )

No, it's been charged and I have already paid the cc.  No hold.  No processing.  I just sent a note to Leica Manchester asking for status update.  I akshully don't mind that they already charged it, as the pound has since strengthened on the dollar.