M11 + 35mm Summilux FLE - wide open (f1.4) + infinity focus - Expectation on focus point

[M11 for me]

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Am 2.8.2022 um 23:20 schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

Either send it away (with lens preferably) for a month or do it yourself in 20 minutes with a 2mm allen key.

Can you explain or refer to some information?

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[Lumenlabs]

18 hours ago, Jewl said:

Hello again,

just a quick update, it seems they made it work again (left is the after version ;-)):

As usual, please find the full image without compression here.

Slowly but surely... 

Cheers,
Julian

 

Did they mention where the issue was and what they adjusted?

[Jewl]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Lumenlabs:

 

Did they mention where the issue was and what they adjusted?

Unfortunately not in detail. Seems to me a black box as the customer care guy who is talking to the customers might have lacked the full details / technical knowledge. Also no real details on the quotation I received before they did it. They just mentioned that both pieces have been calibrated and aligned again (focus and sensor position within the body). Fine for me at the end of day as long as it is working 😉

[M11 for me]

@FlashGordonPhotography Could you pls explain how to calibrate the system yourself? You mentionned this and you claimed that it was easy to do in less than 20 minutes. I would be interested in knowing more.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

14 hours ago, M11 for me said:

@FlashGordonPhotography Could you pls explain how to calibrate the system yourself? You mentionned this and you claimed that it was easy to do in less than 20 minutes. I would be interested in knowing more.

Many, many posts in the M forums about rangefinder calibration and some Youtube videos. Search is your friend. I didn't discover this. I'm just copying smart people who came before. But the basics:

There are three main adjustments to the M rangefinder, two of which are accessible to us. The infinity position, vertical adjustment and the focus throw adjustment. It is possible for us to adjust the first two but not the last which really does require special equipment. For the infinity adjustment you need a 2mm allen key and a  half drop of acetone. For the vertical you also need to remove the red dot or screw on the front of the camera. Both are very easy to damage.

Tools: 2mm allen key. Cotton tips. Acetone. Optional: soft tip screw driver for screw or soft pick for dot. Lots of patience and a steady hand.

First check the vertical is good. It's very hard to do infinity if the vertical is out. Something like a TV antenna on a building 20-40 meters away is good.  So is news print close up. If needed remove the red dot by holding your thumb on it for a few minutes to warm up the glue and then rotate back and forwards until it loosens and comes off. You can try a toothpick but it's easily damaged. If you don't have a dot, then remove the screw. It's brass and VERY VERY soft. a bare screwdriver WILL scratch it. I have never gotten a screw off without marking it, at least slightly so you need to be good with that or order a replacement dot/screw. Once the dot/screw is removed you'll see the cam and 2mm allen key nut. Use a cotton tip to lightly moisten the cam. Dab only. Tiny amount. This will temporarily loosen the glue/gum that is like loctite. Do NOT get liquid inside the mechanism. Then turn the nut using the allen key. Small movements only. Adjusting the screw makes obvious movements to the vertical alignment of the RF patch. Once you have it right let the glue/gum go off for a minute or so and then replace the dot/screw. You may need new adhesive for the dot like thin double sided tape or a gum. Generally you don't need to remove the lens while doing a vertical adjustment but after each adjustment turn the focus ring a few times to help the cam settle.

Check the focus throw. No point doing infinity if the throw is out. This is the ratio between infinity and minimum focus and how fast the focus moves. No point having infinity good if mid and minimum is out. If one is good but the other is out then you can't fix it. Send it in. If both are out by the same amount then move on to infinity.

The infinity adjustment point is in the middle of the roller cam at the top of the lens mount on the camera. Turn the camera upside down with the body cap off and you can't miss it. You'll need two positions. One at infinity (actual infinity. a couple of hundred meters, not 50) and a mid distance (for testing) you can also do minimum if you're fussy. The idea is to get infinity perfect and the other two should be perfect also. Small/tiny movements and you'll need to gently support the roller arm. Be gentle. There will be resistance in the cam nut but if you need to force it you'll break something. Small movements either way until you get it spot on. Very small movements. Bonus points if you have an M with an EVF which will dramatically speed things up as you can set the lens to the hard stop and check to see if you have actual infinity via the RF. Otherwise use live view. It's right when you focus at infinity in the RF and live view magnified confirms the focus is correct. Or you can take a shot and check the review zoomed in. I do both. Once you think you have infinity right then check mid distance for further fine tuning. If infinity is exactly right then mid should be as well. You'll have the lens on and off 20 times at least doing small adjustments until it's right. Lens on, check two/three positions/lens off, adjust, repeat.......If you do get infinity perfect and mid/close is still off all the time then it's the throw adjustment and you can't do that. But hopefully now, after many micro adjustments you have a perfectly calibrated rangefinder.

NOTES:

1. You're on your own. I'm not responsible if you slip and put an allen key through your shutter or sensor. Or for the scratches on your red dot or camera. I'm explaining HOW you do it not telling you that you should do it. Some people should just leave it up to Leica and pay the money. You'll soon see why a RF adjustment costs what it does and you're not paying the half million the calibration machine costs. I put masking tape around the work area when I do this. Also Leica use a very specialised machine to calibrate. They don't do it by hand so their way is repeatable and consistent. This is more by trial and error. OTOH I've done this several times and had perfect focusing for years after.

2. It is possible to go too far and break something. The movements are tiny. Just applying pressure but not feeling the cam move on the allen key might move the cam enough to make a meaningful change. Also keep your workspace clean unless you like dust in the RF after you remove the dot/screw.

3. Warranty. Depending on where you are in the world you may be playing fire with any warranty. And if you slip and break something then you will be spending many dollars at Wetzlar. You need to accept this risk before you start. And know your national consumer laws regarding this.

4. I have not had an M10 or M11 out at infinity. Nor has anyone I know. I have had a vertical adjustment required. You need to be 100% sure it's the RF before you do this. It could be a lens that's out. If you have only one or two lenses I wouldn't do this. If you have a few and they're all out by the same amount then it's likely this will help. Also there are a few lenses you shouldn't use for this. The 135APO is the main one because it has gear lash (look it up. I'm not doing another two pages) but I'd avoid things like the Noctilux as your test mule. A 1.4 is about ideal.

5 The vertical on the M8/M9 uses a special tool (an offset screw driver) not an allen key. The infinity is the same. The vertical with a 2mm commenced with the M(240). I wouldn't attempt an M8/9 unless you're confident in your abilities.

6. If in doubt, don't do it.

Gordon

[Fgcm]

16 hours ago, M11 for me said:

@FlashGordonPhotography Could you pls explain how to calibrate the system yourself? You mentionned this and you claimed that it was easy to do in less than 20 minutes. I would be interested in knowing more.

Calibrating the rangefinder is a matter of minutes. Search this forum. You will find many treads.

calibrating the sensor is a different story. One should disassemble the camera. 

[M11 for me]

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Great. I am out of the socks. I will read that later. Thank you very much.

[M11 for me]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Fgcm:

Search this forum. You will find many treads.

You can be sure that I did that. Terms calibration or calibrating in english and german or Rangefinder etc . . . I must be too stupid 😇

[Fgcm]

On 8/10/2022 at 4:02 AM, M11 for me said:

You can be sure that I did that. Terms calibration or calibrating in english and german or Rangefinder etc . . . I must be too stupid 😇

Check this 

 

[M11 for me]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Fgcm:

Check this 

 

I see no term "calibration"

[lct]

I would no calibrate anything if the camera is under warranty. Otherwise you will find good info on this here:

 

 

[hmzimelka]

Today I walked away from a new Summilux-M 35 ASPH FLE I tried at a Cape Town retailer. 

It didn't quite focus to infinity even though the rangefinder patch was lined up perfectly. Infinity only got decent central sharpness by f/2.8. The lens was front focusing a little in general over all distances, and tended to be spot on from at around f/2.4... Focus shift was notable between f/2 and f/4. Not huge, but large enough to be a bother. The lens was also behaving as if it was swung to the right. 

I then went on to try an APO Summicron 75mm, and that had such incredibly heavy front focus that it could just about create a sharp image at infinity at f/8. Viewfinder patch was perfectly aligned at infinity, as was the hard infinity stop. But at f/2 it was very blurry.

 

[lct]

10 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

Today I walked away from a new Summilux-M 35 ASPH FLE I tried at a Cape Town retailer. 

It didn't quite focus to infinity even though the rangefinder patch was lined up perfectly. Infinity only got decent central sharpness by f/2.8. The lens was front focusing a little in general over all distances, and tended to be spot on from at around f/2.4... Focus shift was notable between f/2 and f/4. Not huge, but large enough to be a bother. The lens was also behaving as if it was swung to the right. 

I then went on to try an APO Summicron 75mm, and that had such incredibly heavy front focus that it could just about create a sharp image at infinity at f/8. Viewfinder patch was perfectly aligned at infinity, as was the hard infinity stop. But at f/2 it was very blurry.

 

May i ask how you managed to test those focus shift issues? Did you use a Visoflex to compare? Just curious as my 35/1.4 FLE and 75/2 apo are spot on, or at least they were so the last time i checked. Was not on the M11 though but focus shift has nothing to do with bodies IINW.  

[hmzimelka]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

May i ask how you managed to test those focus shift issues? Did you use a Visoflex to compare? Just curious as my 35/1.4 FLE and 75/2 apo are spot on, or at least they were so the last time i checked. Was not on the M11 though but focus shift has nothing to do with bodies IINW.  

Had my camera on a tripod out on the paved drive way. Fairly low to the ground. Focused with live view. Shot off an aperture series. 

I then imported the images into Lightroom and compared the images.

No focus shift with the 75 APO. Only the Summilux 35. Its minor. But it would bother me.

[lct]

25 minutes ago, hmzimelka said:

No focus shift with the 75 APO

Ah yes sorry you said « incredibly heavy front focus that it could just about create a sharp image at infinity at f/8 ». Are you sure you were not testing a Jupiter lens?  Just kidding as my Jupiter 85/2 is as accurate as my Summicron 75/2 more or less. Something went wrong with your lens and/or body apparently. Just checked at f/2 and f/8 on my M11 at about 5m and  infinity. The 75/2 is spot on as expected.

Edited August 20, 2022 by lct

[hmzimelka]

45 minutes ago, lct said:

Ah yes sorry you said « incredibly heavy front focus that it could just about create a sharp image at infinity at f/8 ». Are you sure you were not testing a Jupiter lens?  Just kidding as my Jupiter 85/2 is as accurate as my Summicron 75/2 more or less. Something went wrong with your lens and/or body apparently. Just checked at f/2 and f/8 on my M11 at about 5m and  infinity. The 75/2 is spot on as expected.

The APO Summicron 75mm was unusable. Definitely the lens. 

QC at Leica isn't great. At least not with any new lens I have bought or wanted to buy. 

Both the Summilux-m 35 ASPH FLE and APO-Summicron-M 75mm were new out the box. 

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

Had my camera on a tripod out on the paved drive way. Fairly low to the ground. Focused with live view. Shot off an aperture series. 

I then imported the images into Lightroom and compared the images.

No focus shift with the 75 APO. Only the Summilux 35. Its minor. But it would bother me.

Did you focus wide open using LV? What was the working aperture where you noticed the focus shift?

[Jewl]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb hmzimelka:

The APO Summicron 75mm was unusable. Definitely the lens. 

QC at Leica isn't great. At least not with any new lens I have bought or wanted to buy. 

Both the Summilux-m 35 ASPH FLE and APO-Summicron-M 75mm were new out the box. 

I have the perception this is something with the M11 bodies. As you know, had the same experience which needed to be corrected twice. Maybe there is a calibration of the body and 35mm lux fle required even if they are new?!

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[lct]

12 minutes ago, Jewl said:

I have the perception this is something with the M11 bodies [...]

Focus shift is not a problem of camera body as i understand it. It is just the focus that shifts when changing aperture. Not the same issue as front or back focus IMHO. Floating elements are supposed to prevent or reduce focus shift, not to create it. It is then surprising to hear that it may still be a problem on the 35/1.4 FLE. Mine never exhibited focus shift on any camera body so far but i did not test it on the M11 TBH.

[gotium]

9 hours ago, lct said:

Focus shift is not a problem of camera body as i understand it. It is just the focus that shifts when changing aperture. Not the same issue as front or back focus IMHO. Floating elements are supposed to prevent or reduce focus shift, not to create it. It is then surprising to hear that it may still be a problem on the 35/1.4 FLE. Mine never exhibited focus shift on any camera body so far but i did not test it on the M11 TBH.

Oh my 35/1.4 FLE had focus shift. One of the reasons I replaced it with a Distagon.