I love my M11, (and Q2 Mono) but....

[codocee]

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Wow!

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[grahamc]

I suppose the thread is result of ...

1) a very elaborate trolling strategy (hence mentioning gender, age etc)

Or

2) an honest, albeit subjective, observation of  the M11 sensor having similarities to that made, by Sony for their A7riv camera 

Whilst both are unfortunate, Option 2 is not impossible considering a great many have made similar observations. 

Some of the debate here has been around people making specific/ claims of whether it is the same sensor  ... (eg “it’s the same sensor” countered by “well actually it’s not because it’s specified differently, or “no it’s not”). 

With that said , I don’t think people should be shut down for expressing an opinion or observation because it’s unpopular or the community doesn’t want to hear it.   As long as it’s not completely ridiculous.  If it’s a widely mentioned one it “could” have some merit  

Many said that, to them, the young pretenders Oasis sounded like the legendary Beatles.  It wouldn’t be much of an acknowledgement / debate / to shut down such an opinion with “well, they aren’t the Beatles”.

Unfortunately on this occasion the opinion in question is more about the legendary Beatles sounding like the young pretenders Oasis ... which is quite a bizarre thought isn’t it.   Thank god neither are still together 😂

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by grahamc

[charlesphoto99]

It's a freaking camera. Not sure why some users here feel as if somebody made them the chief of internet police when they get their feelings a bit hurt over their new five figure toy, a toy they probably really didn't need over their last five figure toy. Sure trolling can be annoying, but an opposing viewpoint can make for a lot more interesting discussion than constantly shutting oneself up in a sycophantic bubble.

[lct]

12 hours ago, hdmesa said:

[...] If true that the OP is not trolling, then it's just unfortunate that they used almost every Leica trolling template in a single post:

• Leica is no better than Sony.
• Monochrome sensors are no better than photos converted from a color sensor.
• Leica M primes are no better than pro zooms.
• Leica M primes are no better than other brand M primes.
• Leica M cameras are very expensive with no real difference when compared to other cameras.
• No comparison photos. [...]

Trolling i don't know but Leica bashing it looks like. Curiously enough, it seems that those boring so-called arguments are less common on Fred Miranda, RFF and even DPReview than on the LUF these days. I have no idea why.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

It's a freaking camera. Not sure why some users here feel as if somebody made them the chief of internet police when they get their feelings a bit hurt over their new five figure toy, a toy they probably really didn't need over their last five figure toy. Sure trolling can be annoying, but an opposing viewpoint can make for a lot more interesting discussion than constantly shutting oneself up in a sycophantic bubble.

The OP’s post are things we have discussed quite a bit here. I’ve stated the M11 sensor is the one from the A7R4 with custom microlenses and IR/UV layer many times before. I just don’t like reading big conclusions like “I can’t see any difference between X and Y” without seeing some examples. I don’t care what they’re comparing. Nothing to do with feelings. The “hurt feelings” in threads like these usually come from non-owners.

[BigBabyEarl]

Ha. So wild. Who has time to mess around trolling on forums unless they’re being paid to do so. Big deal, Sony makes sensors for everyone. If you gave me a Sony camera I’d sell it for more Leica gear. Color science, finish, quality, my own personal results tell me which camera to spend money on. I can’t imagine why anyone would care enough to get kicked off and come back in disguise. 

[Kwesi]

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1 hour ago, lct said:

Trolling i don't know but Leica bashing it looks like. Curiously enough, it seems that those boring so-called arguments are less common on Fred Miranda, RFF and even DPReview than on the LUF these days. I have no idea why.

Because we keep taking the bait by responding to these posts.

Since we bought our M11's back in January, we've been bombarded by negative posts about the camera from established members and new ones to the point where the M11 forum for a while was a very unpleaseant place for an owner to visit. So its not surprising that some have developed a knee jerk reaction to these negative posts.

My suggestion is the best way to deal with a troll is to ignore them. If a genuine innocent poster asks why their post is being ignored, we can gently explain why.

 

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Trolling i don't know but Leica bashing it looks like. Curiously enough, it seems that those boring so-called arguments are less common on Fred Miranda, RFF and even DPReview than on the LUF these days. I have no idea why.

True. I just don’t get the point of announcing (“humble bragging”?) that one’s $18K M11 + 50 APO isn’t any better than their Sony with a zoom. I mean, my iPhone can take photos as good or nearly as good as my M11. I shoot the M11 for more than the IQ.

M11:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

iPhone:

 

So sure, the M11 IQ is a bit better, but enough to justify the expense over my phone? Maybe, but not just for IQ.

Edited July 25, 2022 by hdmesa

[charlesphoto99]

My reaction was mostly to the suggestion that somebody should have to post 50-100X before starting a thread. So where would that leave a new to Leica owner who has valid technical and user concerns/questions? If it was me, I would just say fug it and move on elsewhere. Everybody should have the right to participate as they see fit, and lest users forget, we all had to start at zero, no matter. 

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, charlesphoto99 said:

My reaction was mostly to the suggestion that somebody should have to post 50-100X before starting a thread. So where would that leave a new to Leica owner who has valid technical and user concerns/questions? If it was me, I would just say fug it and move on elsewhere. Everybody should have the right to participate as they see fit, and lest users forget, we all had to start at zero, no matter. 

Fair. Most forums that have such a restriction have a pinned thread in every sub-forum for new users to ask questions and/or a pinned FAQ thread. On this forum, a new user could ask any question about the M11 in the main M11 thread if it were to be pinned – or any other thread. But such a restriction is often not implemented due to the fact that inflammatory threads, even if annoying, drive interactions and ad revenue.

[MrPaulK]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Everybody should have the right to participate as they see fit

Oh, I don’t know about “as they see fit”. Down that path lies madness. Some are more fit then others. But yah new users need to be able to ask questions. 

[grahamc]

5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I shoot the M11 for more than the IQ.

 

Yes, I think this is the main point that gets missed in these debates isn't it .

I have the A7Riv, which is a far 'better' sensor than my Leica cameras that I have owned / presently own (D-262, M10-D, M10-P).  The malleability / recoverability of the files is incredible.  However, it has barely been used since I picked up those cameras. I only use it if I have to , really

Edited July 25, 2022 by grahamc

[codocee]

10 hours ago, lct said:

Trolling i don't know but Leica bashing it looks like. Curiously enough, it seems that those boring so-called arguments are less common on Fred Miranda, RFF and even DPReview than on the LUF these days. I have no idea why.

Maybe the reason the other sites aren’t mired in those “boring, so called arguments” is that they appear to advocate and promote:

Learning

Equality

Respect

Encouragement

Consideration

Non Aggression

Patience

Civil Dialogue 

Less so for confrontational, non constructive input.

 

I think the more time we spend outdoors, photographing the subjects and things we cherish, the less time we spend in front of a screen, whether that’s a cell phone, tablet, or computer, the healthier it is for the soul.

We need to give this a rest and regroup.

 

[lct]

11 minutes ago, codocee said:

Maybe the reason the other sites aren’t mired in those “boring, so called arguments” is that they appear to advocate and promote:

Learning

Equality

Respect

Encouragement

Consideration

Non Aggression

Patience

Civil Dialogue 

Less so for confrontational, non constructive input.

I don't know for how long you participated in this forum but i began 20 years ago and those virtues have always been respected here, at least since the forum is moderated.

[jakontil]

4 hours ago, grahamc said:

Yes, I think this is the main point that gets missed in these debates isn't it .

I have the A7Riv, which is a far 'better' sensor than my Leica cameras that I have owned / presently own (D-262, M10-D, M10-P).  The malleability / recoverability of the files is incredible.  However, it has barely been used since I picked up those cameras. I only use it if I have to , really

I cant see you pick up tge A7r4 on your trip when you have m10 at your disposal 😀

[SrMi]

44 minutes ago, codocee said:

Maybe the reason the other sites aren’t mired in those “boring, so called arguments” is that they appear to advocate and promote:

Learning

Equality

Respect

Encouragement

Consideration

Non Aggression

Patience

Civil Dialogue 

Less so for confrontational, non constructive input.

 

I think the more time we spend outdoors, photographing the subjects and things we cherish, the less time we spend in front of a screen, whether that’s a cell phone, tablet, or computer, the healthier it is for the soul.

We need to give this a rest and regroup.

 

Those values are definitely not true for DPReview forums. My brief stints in FM forums also do not confirm that those values are followed there. 
From all the forums that I follow, this forum (and Photrio) come closest to the listed criteria.

[tom0511]

I dont get this "my iphone is nearly just as good". Personally I find iphone images look like they went through a brain wash machine. Everything looks nice and colorful and faces look smooth.... add some fake shallow DOF and you are done.

I totally agree that handling and user interface are important reasons to choose a system, but IMO this doesnt mean there are also some differences in IQ. Even admitted that many systems today can produce axcellent IQ.

 

 

[Lelmer]

On 7/21/2022 at 12:11 PM, Jobetim said:

After purchasing a Q2 Mono, I finally bought an M11 with a 50mm f2 APO-Summicron ASPH, and what a delight both cameras are to handle and use, delivering wonderful images....

 

This is the most important...keep enjoying using your Leica's 🙂

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[elmars]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb tom0511:

Personally I find iphone images look like they went through a brain wash machine

You are right. A little test shows this. Set the iphone to AppleRaw and import a photo taken in Raw to LR. And then set the profile to Adobe Color instead of AppleRaw.